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stefanmohl is offline stefanmohl
2010-02-12 , 16:02
Posts: 172 | Thanked: 170 times | Joined on Jan 2010 @ Sweden
#71
Originally Posted by javispedro View Post
I hope you know about maemo-optify-deb. Save for bugs/TODOs (which TBH are not-as-low-as-I'd-like; see jebba's auto-optification of the entire rebuilt* debian etch archive), it works on most binary packages.

* Cause if you're not rebuilding packages at all you're up for some trouble sooner or later.
Sure, but after that, it isn't a Debian package any longer, right? After that, it is an optified Maemo package. And, I think even you will agree that it is better if we can install packages straight as they are, rather than having to run even a very nicely automated process first. At the very least it would mean that package maintainers have one thing less they need to learn and understand before porting a package to Maemo.

Obviously, I don't expect all packages from one distribution to work out-of-the-box on another distribution, but if we can get rid of the optification requirement, there will actually be quite a lot of Debian packages that work as they are. With optification, as we all know, that is not the case.
 
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javispedro is offline javispedro
2010-02-12 , 16:27
Posts: 2,355 | Thanked: 5,249 times | Joined on Jan 2009 @ Barcelona
#72
Originally Posted by stefanmohl View Post
Obviously, I don't expect all packages from one distribution to work out-of-the-box on another distribution, but if we can get rid of the optification requirement, there will actually be quite a lot of Debian packages that work as they are.
Again, I think that's a bad thing to do, and the chances for something to break are _high_. See the common question of using Ubuntu packages in Debian.
 
stefanmohl is offline stefanmohl
2010-02-12 , 17:01
Posts: 172 | Thanked: 170 times | Joined on Jan 2010 @ Sweden
#73
Originally Posted by egoshin View Post
Look at this - http://www.linux-mag.com/id/7378/2/

"Summary" section:

One area that FS-Cache could prove to be of future use is for caching local file systems. Currently, file systems rely on the kernel for caching data and scheduling for writing/reading to/from the storage. This caching is not directly under your control. But if a local file system can be modified to use FS-Cache then you could use a small but very fast SSD or even a Ramdisk for caching of data.

It gets off symlink problem as is as bootstrap problem.
Yes, I agree, a cache system would get rid of the symlink problem. I am merely arguing against optification. My suggested solution is meant to be as simple as possible, it is actually just a variation of how optification works now. Instead of optifying everything, we just "negative-optify" root once and then we can install everything else as normal.

Your caching suggestion is much more elegant and advanced, and if it can be made to work with stability, it would be better. I gave it my vote as soon as I saw it :-)

If you haven't done so already, you should look at the posts by @SR too. He hasn't made a formal Brainstorm Solution yet that I am aware of, but his ideas are very similar to yours. The main difference is that your solution uses an automated cache policy, whereas his solution assumes manual decision of what goes in the fast or big flash.
 
stefanmohl is offline stefanmohl
2010-02-12 , 17:10
Posts: 172 | Thanked: 170 times | Joined on Jan 2010 @ Sweden
#74
Originally Posted by javispedro View Post
Again, I think that's a bad thing to do, and the chances for something to break are _high_. See the common question of using Ubuntu packages in Debian.
Yes, as you yourself quote, "I don't expect all packages from one distribution to work out-of-the-box on another distribution". But even if most packages break, Debian is so much larger than Maemo that we will have a huge increase of working software if only a small proportion of Debian would work. Please forgive me if I misunderstood, but to me it seems that your are arguing that just because some packages break, we might as well break them all.
 
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SubCore is offline SubCore
2010-02-12 , 18:24
Posts: 850 | Thanked: 626 times | Joined on Sep 2009 @ Vienna, Austria
#75
Originally Posted by stefanmohl View Post
But even if most packages break, Debian is so much larger than Maemo that we will have a huge increase of working software if only a small proportion of Debian would work.
do you have a background in debian-style packaging?
i don't think you do, because if you did, you should know that "optification" really is the smallest part of it. it's the part you consider AFTER you've addressed the big issues.

and to illustrate, i'll give you a simple example:

say you wanted to install bc from the debian stable repository.
although it's a very simple commandline app, the very first dependency of that package will kill you. it requires libc6 > 2.7.1, but the version on the N900 with 51-1 is 2.5.1
if the updater were to install the higher libc6 package, all hell would break loose and you'd have a bricked device. simple as that.

and there are tons of examples like this.
in the easy debian chroot, you can easily provide a proper version (libc6 has v 2.9-4 with the image i have installed currently), but NOT in the native Maemo environment.

it's just not worth the effort, a chroot approach is the cleanest and most reliable way to support multiple distributions. and it works great! (kudos again, qole )
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titan is offline titan
2010-02-13 , 00:01
Posts: 946 | Thanked: 1,650 times | Joined on Oct 2009 @ Germany
#76
Originally Posted by SubCore View Post
i don't think you do, because if you did, you should know that "optification" really is the smallest part of it. it's the part you consider AFTER you've addressed the big issues.
correct. downgrading to the outdated Maemo5 components is the biggest problem.
I thought this brainstorm is about avoiding a full rootfs and not about apparently simpler
installation of packages from other distributions?
Getting rid of optification could make porting a little bit easier but it could also mislead naive users to think that they could install normal Debian packages.
 
stefanmohl is offline stefanmohl
2010-02-13 , 02:15
Posts: 172 | Thanked: 170 times | Joined on Jan 2010 @ Sweden
#77
Originally Posted by titan View Post
I thought this brainstorm is about avoiding a full rootfs and not about apparently simpler
installation of packages from other distributions?
You are right Titan, we are side-tracking. I think we all actually agree: It is never easy to move packages between distributions, and though getting rid of optification makes some difference, that is a far cry from making Maemo into Debian.

Sorry about loosing focus, I'll drop this subject from here on.
 
stefanmohl is offline stefanmohl
2010-02-16 , 18:37
Posts: 172 | Thanked: 170 times | Joined on Jan 2010 @ Sweden
#78
So, is this it? Do most people in this forum want the small rootfs and optification? Or have we emptied all possible suggestions? Does the brainstorm contain all solutions we can think of?

I am still seeing new threads of this kind:
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php...725#post529725

Or this:
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php...088#post530088

Both started today
Last edited by stefanmohl; 2010-02-16 at 18:47.
 
titan is offline titan
2010-02-17 , 18:30
Posts: 946 | Thanked: 1,650 times | Joined on Oct 2009 @ Germany
#79
Only Nokia can make the small but necessary changes to implement solution #2 in a SSU.
I have a patch for debhelper7 which makes it easier for developers to set an arbitrary prefix
for their package installation and which could lead to a cleaner /optification.

I'm also working on a implementation of solution #5, which could also interesting for people
who want to run different firmware versions or install the SDK, while keeping most files on rootfs.

Regarding NILFS2, we have some disappointing benchmark results and facts at
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=43420

Originally Posted by stefanmohl View Post
So, is this it? Do most people in this forum want the small rootfs and optification? Or have we emptied all possible suggestions? Does the brainstorm contain all solutions we can think of?
 

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titan is offline titan
2010-03-07 , 21:47
Posts: 946 | Thanked: 1,650 times | Joined on Oct 2009 @ Germany
#80
A first implementation of solution #5 is available as part of the Moebian project
http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php...122#post559122
it basically moves / to /home or any other partition and keeps the /usr files on NAND.
 
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