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2010-05-07
, 11:25
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Posts: 4,384 |
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Joined on Jul 2007
@ ˙ǝɹǝɥʍou
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#72
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Originally Posted by benny1967
While I understand that you have personal preference to hardware keys (As do I, when I need to type long pieces), I think you're overlooking many of touchscreen's advantages.
I believe analysts and bloggers overestimate the "touch-screen" factor at the moment. It's a hype, such as the clamshell phones were a few lifetimes ago until one day somebody woke up and said: "Hey, that's nonsense... Wouldn't it be so much easier if i could operate this phone without having to open it before? Just like in the old days?"
It's pretty much the same with touch screens. They are modern, they're the cool thing to have, they're different than the devices our parents had two decades ago... But then you have to cover them from bright sunlight, start an application and carefully press or swipe across the right spots on a flat surface in order to make a simple phone call! - And I'm not even starting to talk about text input... One day, somebody will wake up in the morning an remember: "Hey, isn't that nonsense? I used to be able to call my better half simply by pressing and holding "6" on my phone. I didn't even have to look at the phone in order to do this. Why can't I... - Why did they waste all this space on the front of this device with glass?" Then we'll have phones again.
The current situation only means that those who created the touch screen craze benfit from in. Sure they would. But that doesn't mean companies need to focus on touch devices only to be successful in the future. And of course it doesn't mean that a company's long-term success should be judged by their ability to produce compelling touch-screen devices.
For one, they're not just a different form factor like clamshells which you've made a comparison to. It changes the whole interface and
device's functionality, while having a significant effect to the device's form factor. Compared to phones with slide-out keyboard, they're considerably thinner. Compared to phones with qwerty keyboard on its face, they give the user's at least 2x bigger screen size.
It makes the phone cheaper and more universal. A change of input mode (screen controller, touchscreen, multiple keyboard configuration: qwerty, qwertz, azerty, etc) is just a few clicks away.
Etc... etc... etc...
I think touchscreen is here to stay and it will be the beneficiary of new technologies in that sector: haptic feedback, combined capacitive\resistive technology, whatnot...
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Class .. : Power User
Humor .. : [#####-----] | Alignment: Pragmatist
Patience : [###-------] | Weapon(s): Galaxy Note + BB Bold Touch 9900
Agro ... : [###-------] | Relic(s) : iPhone 4S, Atrix, Milestone, N900, N800, N95, HTC G1, Treos, Zauri, BB 9000, BB 9700, etc
Follow the MeeGo Coding Competition!
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2010-05-07
, 11:34
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Posts: 3,790 |
Thanked: 5,718 times |
Joined on Mar 2006
@ Vienna, Austria
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#73
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Originally Posted by ysss
I'm not overlooking them - it's just that I believe they either are relevant only in certain use cases or do not outweigh the disadvantages in the end.
While I understand that you have personal preference to hardware keys (As do I, when I need to type long pieces), I think you're overlooking many of touchscreen's advantages.
I do agree the touch screen is here to stay, the same way we still see clamshell devices. (And I do happily use touch devices such as the 770/N800/N810/N900 and couldn't imagine these devices without one.)
I just don't believe that the touch screen is ideal for a phone - and I think that for a lot of people, the phone use case is still the most important. (Even though they want a device that can navigate and fetch their emails and run applications if they really need to.) I believe there's a market for both; but as I said in the beginning: The role of the touch-devices in this market is overestimated at the moment. They're here to stay as you say, but I believe we'll see more non-touch devices too in the future. (Not in 2010/2011 though. Too many investments made.)
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2010-05-07
, 12:49
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Posts: 1,589 |
Thanked: 720 times |
Joined on Aug 2009
@ Arlington (DFW), Texas
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#74
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Originally Posted by nosa101
I really think my response was curt and obvious, but...
You might need to explain this one
This post is about saving Nokia, and if MeeGo can do it. From my position, they don't need saving.
They sell more smartphones, touchscreen devices, and cellphones than anyonePERIOD! No other company has EVER held a larger piece of the market BUT Nokia. The world's IT tech leader and biggest enterprise solutions company, Microsoft, tried a restructuring similar to Nokia, only their smartphone market share collapsed. They made a clean code break with WP7, and with IT departments having to decide if a fresh start is prudent, it has no guarantee to rise back to its previous dominant level from the WinMo days. To keep its software suite accessible to customers, they chose Nokia's enterprise Eseries devices. Getting such an endorsement from a competitor is flattering, especially when RIM is also entrenched in the same market, probably more.
YOU claim Symbian failed to adapt properly to touch. Symbian had touch long ago via the UIQ Symbian UI, as well as S60 more recently. It is the world's favorite touch solution, its growing, not retreating, market share. While Android boasted a 10% market share after its first full 18 months, Nokia gained 5%, or half of Android's total share, just this Q4!
This is all without its biggest transformation, expected to make it more attractive to those that consider looks important, and more intuitive to neophytes, is still 7 months away. They are gaining momentum well before their true growth stimulators even begin to take off.
I expect growth to expand, both at the high and midrange.
You guage Nokia's success on the high end, when in reality, there are 4 or 5 distinct submarkets Nokia is specializing in. Focusing on each with custom solutions for enterprise, media, messaging, and value, they can more easily target consumer groups. Each of these has its own high end, and Nokia will specialize and attempt to be a leader in each of these segments at various price points.
The high end was stymied by lower hardware R&D spending and an older manufacturing process, but Nokia's manufacturing agility and size give it the ability to make quick changes on those levels.
You can throw a life raft all you wish, but Nokia is backstroking calmly at the moment, and will be upping the ante in 7 months. Be sure to read all the naysayer comments, but withold the snickers. It won't be polite.
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"...and the Freaks shall inherit the Earth."
Last edited by christexaport; 2010-05-07 at 20:53.
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2010-05-08
, 14:41
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Posts: 74 |
Thanked: 15 times |
Joined on Dec 2009
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#75
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Originally Posted by Crashdamage
np, I can read between the lines
@Slick...
Your reply #65 is wrong on so many levels I don't even know where to start - nor do I have the time or inclination. Let's just say either you misunderstand me or I think you're just plain wrong. :-)
But this post reminds me of the the time I said Nokia is gonna end upmaking win mobile phones, and a nokia fan attacked me. The point of my post was Nokia wasn't gonna make it without a partnership. Low and behold the intel announcement, so yeah I picked the wrong company but I saw the writing on the wall.
This situation is no different you fail to comprehend what this discussion is really about that's why you have nothing to say.
__________________
On a whole despite some cool people, this by far is the worst community I've ever come across.
R.I.P. Maemo 5
11/16/2009 - 06/04/2010
On a whole despite some cool people, this by far is the worst community I've ever come across.
R.I.P. Maemo 5
11/16/2009 - 06/04/2010
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2010-05-08
, 16:40
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Posts: 1,667 |
Thanked: 561 times |
Joined on Feb 2010
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#76
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@christexaport
You went a bit overboard with your reply
The nokia implementation of the touchscreen is not the best out. The only reason nokia has such a large marketshare is because of its active presence in the developing markets. You really think if Jobs gave a schit about those markets, the stats would be the same?
It's not the world's favorite option if it's the only one they know or if they haven't got the chance to use better.
You went a bit overboard with your reply
Originally Posted by christexaport
Calm down now
.
They sell more smartphones, touchscreen devices, and cellphones than anyonePERIOD! No other company has EVER held a larger piece of the market BUT Nokia. The world's IT tech leader and biggest enterprise solutions company, Microsoft, tried a restructuring similar to Nokia, only their smartphone market share collapsed. They made a clean code break with WP7, and with IT departments having to decide if a fresh start is prudent, it has no guarantee to rise back to its previous dominant level from the WinMo days. To keep its software suite accessible to customers, they chose Nokia's enterprise Eseries devices. Getting such an endorsement from a competitor is flattering, especially when RIM is also entrenched in the same market, probably more.
Originally Posted by christexaport
I didn't claim anything. I just told you to explain.
.
YOU claim Symbian failed to adapt properly to touch. Symbian had touch long ago via the UIQ Symbian UI, as well as S60 more recently. It is the world's favorite touch solution, its growing, not retreating, market share. While Android boasted a 10% market share after its first full 18 months, Nokia gained 5%, or half of Android's total share, just this Q4!
The nokia implementation of the touchscreen is not the best out. The only reason nokia has such a large marketshare is because of its active presence in the developing markets. You really think if Jobs gave a schit about those markets, the stats would be the same?
It's not the world's favorite option if it's the only one they know or if they haven't got the chance to use better.
Originally Posted by christexaport
No, I don't
This is all without its biggest transformation, expected to make it more attractive to those that consider looks important, and more intuitive to neophytes, is still 7 months away. They are gaining momentum well before their true growth stimulators even begin to take off.
I expect growth to expand, both at the high and midrange.
You guage Nokia's success on the high end, when in reality, there are 4 or 5 distinct submarkets Nokia is specializing in. Focusing on each with custom solutions for enterprise, media, messaging, and value, they can more easily target consumer groups. Each of these has its own high end, and Nokia will specialize and attempt to be a leader in each of these segments at various price points. .
Originally Posted by christexaport
I think you reading too much into what I said now
The high end was stymied by lower hardware R&D spending and an older manufacturing process, but Nokia's manufacturing agility and size give it the ability to make quick changes on those levels.
You can throw a life raft all you wish, but Nokia is backstroking calmly at the moment, and will be upping the ante in 7 months. Be sure to read all the naysayer comments, but withold the snickers. It won't be polite.
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2010-05-08
, 16:44
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Posts: n/a |
Thanked: 0 times |
Joined on
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#77
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Christexaport is rather excitable at times - don't confuse his passion for anger - but I think he was rather calm in his prior post.
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2010-05-08
, 16:57
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Posts: 1,667 |
Thanked: 561 times |
Joined on Feb 2010
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#78
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Originally Posted by gerbick
i just asked him to explain what he meant with the touchscreen issue not to explain nokia's dominance and the failure of others
Christexaport is rather excitable at times - don't confuse his passion for anger - but I think he was rather calm in his prior post.
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2010-05-09
, 20:50
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Posts: 2 |
Thanked: 1 time |
Joined on Dec 2009
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#79
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While I find the article referenced not informative at all (i.e. lacking any kind of analysis), I couldn't leave it alone without adding my analysis.
Difference in R&D cost as a percentage of revenue is explained by the following factors (not all inclusive):
1. R&D cost dropped in 2009 from 2008 - 5968 to 5909 million Euros
2. In 2009 USD dropped vs. Euro. R&D cost spent in Euros automatically increased converted to USD
3. Cost vs. Revenue ratio is misleading. As revenue drops, the ratio increases. Should a company decrease its R&D cost as it's dealing with transformation? Should it look for savings in other areas (i.e. administrative, operational expenses)?
4. R&D for network division (briefly mentioned in the article)
5. R&D for custom chipset in Series 40 phones. Nokia is transitioning off to commercial chipsets from third party manufacturers which should decrease the costs starting this year. (Source: Nokia Software Strategy White Paper)
5. R&D cost for tens of current different models of phone vs. one current from Apple. Even when there are minor differences between some Nokia models (N97 and N97 mini), Dev and QA cost are still there.
6. Support of tens more models via firmware updates vs. Apple's two model.
7. R&D for MeGoo, Symbian Series 60 and 40. Going to open source model should decrease the costs.
8. Software support for subversions of Series 60. Making Nokia software work on FP2 and FP3 phones.
9. R&D cost for NAVTEQ maps (http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/news/...mo_at_MWC_.php) and routing engine (former Gate5). No similar solution made by Apple
10. R&D cost for BetaLabs' many futuristic projects good portion of them don’t end in a marketable product. My guess the quantity and scope of long-range research is larger than Apple's. When Steve Jobs took over Apple he cut R&D budget in almost half, killing many projects that were close to being done or already on the market but were not in line with his strategy to pull Apple out of the financial ruin.
11. R&D for software geared to developing market LifeTools, Money, etc. None at Apple.
12. R&D for market research done by Nokia is legendary. Apple doesn't do market research. Strange but true. Apple tries to anticipate market's needs by providing solutions even before people even know they need them. Therefore, the market research has limited use.
13. While OVI store arguably lacks to polish and features of Apple's, it makes up for it by localization. This cost much money.
Nokia competes in all tiers of mobile phone market (pricewise). It also competes against device manufacturers and infrastructure service providers. When Nokia tries to change many things at once, R&D costs go up. In 2007 when Nokia began its transformation, R&D cost was 5647 million Euro vs. 3897 million Euro in 2006. The question one might ask, what did Nokia get for this investment? But that's for another post.
The point of this post is the article lacks any kind of analysis, and the “financial reporter” is comparing apples and oranges (no pun intended) when it comes to R&D costs
Ross
Difference in R&D cost as a percentage of revenue is explained by the following factors (not all inclusive):
1. R&D cost dropped in 2009 from 2008 - 5968 to 5909 million Euros
2. In 2009 USD dropped vs. Euro. R&D cost spent in Euros automatically increased converted to USD
3. Cost vs. Revenue ratio is misleading. As revenue drops, the ratio increases. Should a company decrease its R&D cost as it's dealing with transformation? Should it look for savings in other areas (i.e. administrative, operational expenses)?
4. R&D for network division (briefly mentioned in the article)
5. R&D for custom chipset in Series 40 phones. Nokia is transitioning off to commercial chipsets from third party manufacturers which should decrease the costs starting this year. (Source: Nokia Software Strategy White Paper)
5. R&D cost for tens of current different models of phone vs. one current from Apple. Even when there are minor differences between some Nokia models (N97 and N97 mini), Dev and QA cost are still there.
6. Support of tens more models via firmware updates vs. Apple's two model.
7. R&D for MeGoo, Symbian Series 60 and 40. Going to open source model should decrease the costs.
8. Software support for subversions of Series 60. Making Nokia software work on FP2 and FP3 phones.
9. R&D cost for NAVTEQ maps (http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/news/...mo_at_MWC_.php) and routing engine (former Gate5). No similar solution made by Apple
10. R&D cost for BetaLabs' many futuristic projects good portion of them don’t end in a marketable product. My guess the quantity and scope of long-range research is larger than Apple's. When Steve Jobs took over Apple he cut R&D budget in almost half, killing many projects that were close to being done or already on the market but were not in line with his strategy to pull Apple out of the financial ruin.
11. R&D for software geared to developing market LifeTools, Money, etc. None at Apple.
12. R&D for market research done by Nokia is legendary. Apple doesn't do market research. Strange but true. Apple tries to anticipate market's needs by providing solutions even before people even know they need them. Therefore, the market research has limited use.
13. While OVI store arguably lacks to polish and features of Apple's, it makes up for it by localization. This cost much money.
Nokia competes in all tiers of mobile phone market (pricewise). It also competes against device manufacturers and infrastructure service providers. When Nokia tries to change many things at once, R&D costs go up. In 2007 when Nokia began its transformation, R&D cost was 5647 million Euro vs. 3897 million Euro in 2006. The question one might ask, what did Nokia get for this investment? But that's for another post.
The point of this post is the article lacks any kind of analysis, and the “financial reporter” is comparing apples and oranges (no pun intended) when it comes to R&D costs
Ross
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2010-05-12
, 13:24
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Posts: 117 |
Thanked: 26 times |
Joined on Dec 2009
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#80
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Here is another interesting story along the same ilk.
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...23vEyQw&pos=11
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...23vEyQw&pos=11
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Symbian is funny in a way that it's very advanced. It got demand paging for 4 years already and S^3 will be the first one from the major OSs to use GPU to help when browsing UI for example. The seed of all problems behind Symbian is AVKON and the weird Symbian C++ framework that comes with it. This means that while there is over 200 million Symbian phone out there OVI store got ~10 000 applications compared to iphones 150 000. With AVKON you can also go just that far with the UI design.
If there's a Nokia saver it's not MeeGo, it's Qt. Symbian will actually be the new S40, new volume OS and Harmattan MeeGo will be the Symbian that it was for it's first 5-6 years. Qt based Symbian(S^4 and everything after that)will be at least just as important for Nokia as Harmattan/MeeGo(that will be the first Qt based) that will be true high end OS and i'm very happy Nokia did that.
Qt and QT SDK takes application development to a different level and you can wait some actually modern feeling UI's and looking. Anybody who have tested Widget Gallery probally understands why i'm talking about modern feeling UI's.
Qt is no win button, but it sure gives possibility for Nokia to make Harmattan something actually better than iphone in pure UI sense rather than just something that's ok. Hopefully Nokia can deliver with Harmattan/MeeGo because i really like the idea behind Maemo.
Last edited by tissot; 2010-05-07 at 13:19.