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The N900 is now 15 years old! (8)
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2010-02-26
, 15:05
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Posts: 11,700 |
Thanked: 10,045 times |
Joined on Jun 2006
@ North Texas, USA
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#832
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Originally Posted by www.rzr.online.fr
Your intentions are good but I have to agree with the other comments. I've advocated patience too but we're at or near the breaking point for many victims of this. The failure mode is nothing to be trivialized either.
I think it's a bit early to bite nokia, let's give them some time to handle this issue ...
I am thinking on a positive way on how our community can help to goes through this problem :
So I created a page on the wiki, first it will be useful to identify the broken devices, please fill :
http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_USB
But certainly many members of the community have stepped up to try to get this favorably resolved. I'm very impressed overall with how this is going on the community side.
__________________
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
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2010-02-26
, 15:07
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Posts: 1,348 |
Thanked: 1,863 times |
Joined on Jan 2009
@ fr/35/rennes
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#833
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To all brick900 owners :
OK I didnt spend 500 bucks for a brick so I am not upset as you might be ...
I just started that page , because I felt that was an hot topic, feel free to edit it ... and sorry for my English , I learn it on IRC :-)
My first Idea was to identify the affected users, this info will be helpful for you too (didn't you said stronger together)
If current/upcoming n900 are ok , then the problem is mostly solved you'll have to be patient and keep fighting...
If the issue is bigger that that , then we'll have to be more responsible because I would be really sad that the device will go out of the light like openmoko did..
Anyway I am less informed than you are.. so I will shut up and wait a bit on my n810 before purchassing fixed n900...
Good luck
OK I didnt spend 500 bucks for a brick so I am not upset as you might be ...
I just started that page , because I felt that was an hot topic, feel free to edit it ... and sorry for my English , I learn it on IRC :-)
My first Idea was to identify the affected users, this info will be helpful for you too (didn't you said stronger together)
If current/upcoming n900 are ok , then the problem is mostly solved you'll have to be patient and keep fighting...
If the issue is bigger that that , then we'll have to be more responsible because I would be really sad that the device will go out of the light like openmoko did..
Anyway I am less informed than you are.. so I will shut up and wait a bit on my n810 before purchassing fixed n900...
Good luck
__________________
Current obsession:
https://purl.org/rzr/abandonware
Please help to list all maemo existing apps :
https://github.com/abandonware/aband...ment-578143760
https://wiki.maemo.org/Apps#
I am looking for " 4 inch TFT LCD display screen " for Nokia n950 HandSet
http://rzr.online.fr/q/lcd
Also, I need online storage to archive files :
http://db.tt/gn5Qffd6#
https://my.pcloud.com/#page=register...e=g8ikZmcfEJy#
Current obsession:
https://purl.org/rzr/abandonware
Please help to list all maemo existing apps :
https://github.com/abandonware/aband...ment-578143760
https://wiki.maemo.org/Apps#
I am looking for " 4 inch TFT LCD display screen " for Nokia n950 HandSet
http://rzr.online.fr/q/lcd
Also, I need online storage to archive files :
http://db.tt/gn5Qffd6#
https://my.pcloud.com/#page=register...e=g8ikZmcfEJy#
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2010-02-26
, 15:14
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Posts: 184 |
Thanked: 49 times |
Joined on Feb 2010
@ US
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#834
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Is there a way for users to change their vote results?
Working -> Broken could be the most likely case. Options to see "Nokia warranty - Covered" and "Nokia Warranty - Rejected" could be helpful to track how Nokia is dealing with this issue quantitatively.
Working -> Broken could be the most likely case. Options to see "Nokia warranty - Covered" and "Nokia Warranty - Rejected" could be helpful to track how Nokia is dealing with this issue quantitatively.
Originally Posted by b15cu1t
The poll results are invalid. I posted under no problems yet and mine then broke two days later. The problem is probably much worse than the figures represent.......
Mine is on its way back from the repair centre and I'm to fill in a MPD insurance claim form and send the phone to them. I'm hoping it will be an insurance job and not another returned broken phone.
ALL BECAUSE NOKIA WONT TAKE THE BLAME FOR BUILDING IT WRONG.
I suspect they will try to string this crap out until all the warrantys have expired.
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2010-02-26
, 15:14
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Posts: 1,224 |
Thanked: 1,763 times |
Joined on Jul 2007
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#835
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Isn't "it seems trivial to repair" an outright lie? Nokia says BER, and it seems that motherboard replacement is needed.
__________________
My repository
"N900 community support for the MeeGo-Harmattan" Is the new "Mer is Fremantle for N810".
No more Nokia devices for me.
My repository
"N900 community support for the MeeGo-Harmattan" Is the new "Mer is Fremantle for N810".
No more Nokia devices for me.
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2010-02-26
, 15:21
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Posts: 1,310 |
Thanked: 820 times |
Joined on Mar 2006
@ Irving, TX
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#836
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Just to chime in to this subject. (I haven't had this problem... yet. Fingers crossed.)
Nokia should handle this like Canon did fix my camera few years back: There was a known issue on certain camera model where some cable become detached from a CCD, causing malfunction. That was covered under warranty regardless of the age of the unit. I sent my camera for repair when it was ~3 years old, well beyond the normal warranty period of 1 year. They paid all the shipping back and forth, and were quick too. I think it took about a week for the whole process! This is how do you handle design issues in your products to keep your customers happy and coming back in the future.
Second thing... I think there is a possibility to "prove" the design in N900 is faulty. I'd start by making some calculations showing the shear force to the solder pads using the measured insertion/removal forces of the supplied USB cables (charger and data cables). Solder land sizes should be possible to find from the connector datasheet. Looking at the USB connector size I don't think the pads are large enough to keep the shear force below some industry approved/recommended shear force for solder joints. (I'm guessing here... but I'd be surprised if I'm completely off with my statement. Just look at the number of people having this issue!)
Third, since the connector is intented to be inserted by hand, there must be some tolerance designed in if someone insert the plug not exactly straight, or remove it not pulling it out exactly straight. Don't ya agree?
Nokia should handle this like Canon did fix my camera few years back: There was a known issue on certain camera model where some cable become detached from a CCD, causing malfunction. That was covered under warranty regardless of the age of the unit. I sent my camera for repair when it was ~3 years old, well beyond the normal warranty period of 1 year. They paid all the shipping back and forth, and were quick too. I think it took about a week for the whole process! This is how do you handle design issues in your products to keep your customers happy and coming back in the future.
Second thing... I think there is a possibility to "prove" the design in N900 is faulty. I'd start by making some calculations showing the shear force to the solder pads using the measured insertion/removal forces of the supplied USB cables (charger and data cables). Solder land sizes should be possible to find from the connector datasheet. Looking at the USB connector size I don't think the pads are large enough to keep the shear force below some industry approved/recommended shear force for solder joints. (I'm guessing here... but I'd be surprised if I'm completely off with my statement. Just look at the number of people having this issue!)
Third, since the connector is intented to be inserted by hand, there must be some tolerance designed in if someone insert the plug not exactly straight, or remove it not pulling it out exactly straight. Don't ya agree?
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2010-02-26
, 15:26
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Posts: 11,700 |
Thanked: 10,045 times |
Joined on Jun 2006
@ North Texas, USA
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#837
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Very well put Mara.
It must also be considered that users will occasionally accidentally try to insert the connector upside down, which will result in higher-then-usual force until the mistake is discovered. Assuming the user never looks at or recognizes the orientation symbol, there's a 50% opportunity. Assuming they look half the time, 25% opportunity. Regardless, that will exacerbate the issue.
I sure wish USB had been originally designed to work either way (not hard, just would require additional contacts).
It must also be considered that users will occasionally accidentally try to insert the connector upside down, which will result in higher-then-usual force until the mistake is discovered. Assuming the user never looks at or recognizes the orientation symbol, there's a 50% opportunity. Assuming they look half the time, 25% opportunity. Regardless, that will exacerbate the issue.
I sure wish USB had been originally designed to work either way (not hard, just would require additional contacts).
__________________
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
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2010-02-26
, 15:30
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Posts: 311 |
Thanked: 180 times |
Joined on Dec 2009
@ London
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#838
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OK I didnt spend 500 bucks for a brick so I am not upset as you might be ...
I just started that page,...
... and sorry for my English , I learn it on IRC :-)
If current/upcoming n900 are ok , then the problem is mostly solved you'll have to be patient and keep fighting...
If the issue is bigger that that , then we'll have to be more responsible because I would be really sad that the device will go out of the light like openmoko did..
I guess I came over a bit strong rzr, I did not want to offend you. If I have stepped on your toes, I am sorry.
BUT: Next time you post a Wiki entry please do your research or consult experts before writing any content. But it's great you started it, for the time being I would suggest taking out the inconsistent sentences and just stating that there are problem + a "more information soon". That would be the best course of action.
Regards,
Hauser
__________________
|| Check it out: http://soundcloud.com/sebastian-hauser ||
|| Check it out: http://soundcloud.com/sebastian-hauser ||
Last edited by Haus3r; 2010-02-26 at 15:33.
| The Following User Says Thank You to Haus3r For This Useful Post: | ||
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2010-02-26
, 15:40
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Posts: 147 |
Thanked: 228 times |
Joined on Feb 2010
@ Toronto, Canada
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#839
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Originally Posted by Mara
You make very good points, but anyone trying to calculate these forces would have to deal with a lot of guesses. Nokia will not release the exact details of the solder compound used, PCB preparation, soldering methods, etc.
Just to chime in to this subject. (I haven't had this problem... yet. Fingers crossed.)
[...]
Second thing... I think there is a possibility to "prove" the design in N900 is faulty. I'd start by making some calculations showing the shear force to the solder pads using the measured insertion/removal forces of the supplied USB cables (charger and data cables). Solder land sizes should be possible to find from the connector datasheet. Looking at the USB connector size I don't think the pads are large enough to keep the shear force below some industry approved/recommended shear force for solder joints. (I'm guessing here... but I'd be surprised if I'm completely off with my statement. Just look at the number of people having this issue!)
Third, since the connector is intented to be inserted by hand, there must be some tolerance designed in if someone insert the plug not exactly straight, or remove it not pulling it out exactly straight. Don't ya agree?
Even slight variations in any of these factors can have dramatic effects, just think of the scandal Nvidia was involved in with their G84 and G86 core video cards. A minor error in specifying the correct solder compound led to a 30% failure rate of all those video cards, with more likely to fail in the future. Nvidia themselves set aside $200 million to correct the issue, although the damage may be much higher than that.
The only way to prove defects is to test these things. But you need to purchase a batch of N900s and have an independent lab test the forces required to break the USB port off. I'm guessing you'd need at least 4 units to test all cases (one for each axis, plus one for repeated straight, proper insertion and removal of the USB cable). Most likely you'd want more units for each case.
So we're talking thousands of dollars just in N900s, plus fees for the lab. Not going to happen.
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2010-02-26
, 15:58
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Posts: 17 |
Thanked: 8 times |
Joined on Feb 2010
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#840
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Another option to force calculations and diagrams would be to compare how the N900's USB port is anchored against other Nokia phones. If the results are that the N900's USB port is anchored in an inferior way to other Nokia phones then it suggests that Nokia's quality is declining.
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| Tags |
| bad design, broken, charging, failure, hardware, loose, microusb, microusb port, n900, nokia, part, port, repair, return, surface mount, usb, usb port, warranty |
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Mine is on its way back from the repair centre and I'm to fill in a MPD insurance claim form and send the phone to them. I'm hoping it will be an insurance job and not another returned broken phone.
ALL BECAUSE NOKIA WONT TAKE THE BLAME FOR BUILDING IT WRONG.
I suspect they will try to string this crap out until all the warrantys have expired.