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2009-05-26
, 23:36
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Posts: 610 |
Thanked: 391 times |
Joined on Feb 2006
@ DC, USA
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#82
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Originally Posted by Texrat
I don't know, the offender seems to be unusually quiet lately, treading lightly, as it were, so maybe he is internalizing.
That's the part some seem to get hung up on, totololo included. In fact as long as we remain stuck on that particular aspect I don't think this dialog is going anywhere...
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2009-05-26
, 23:39
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Posts: 610 |
Thanked: 391 times |
Joined on Feb 2006
@ DC, USA
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#83
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Originally Posted by qole
Or it could have been entirely because of the popularity of your qole profile pic.
I am a good example of this. Until the elections, I was not subscribed to any mailing lists, nor do I frequent the IRC channel(s). Pretty much the only way anyone could know anything about me (other than my Easy Debian download page on maemo.org) is through ITT. It would seem that I was elected almost purely because I am known here, on these forums.
| The Following User Says Thank You to mullf For This Useful Post: | ||
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2009-05-26
, 23:40
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Posts: 610 |
Thanked: 391 times |
Joined on Feb 2006
@ DC, USA
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#84
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Originally Posted by YoDude
I certainly wasn't. I am now, though. Fear my power!
Many members of iTT were not registered members of maemo.org at the time and were not eligible to vote.
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2009-05-26
, 23:44
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Posts: 5,478 |
Thanked: 5,222 times |
Joined on Jan 2006
@ St. Petersburg, FL
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#85
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Originally Posted by mullf
I'm not interested in dignifying thinly veiled personal attacks with a response.
I don't know, the offender seems to be unusually quiet lately, treading lightly, as it were, so maybe he is internalizing.
If you have an issue with me, I suggest you take it up with me directly.
__________________
Ryan Abel
Ryan Abel
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2009-05-26
, 23:49
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Posts: 5,795 |
Thanked: 3,151 times |
Joined on Feb 2007
@ Agoura Hills Calif
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#86
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"Is there really a feeling that the "maemo.org crowd" and the "ITT crowd" are distinct and separate?"
IMHO, The Maemo crowd are and always have been primarily programmers and those who associate with programmers.
The ITT crowd are primarily not programmers.
Of course there are massive exceptions.
But to me, there is a big difference in cultures, causing the proverbial culture clash.
Take the idea of "contributing to the community," for example. I don't think this is that big of a concern to users. But to developers, it is a huge concern.
So, you have two different groups, one very large and one relatively small. When the large group is more or less forced to merge with the small group and adhere to its culture, you have the seeds of rebellion.
I would like to add that a big pretense is made that the new arrangement does not involve a significant power shift. But I heard, for example, discussions of rearranging forums and establishing moderators. This seems to me to mean that someone has power, and it's not me.
I'm not opposed to rearranging forums or using moderators, but it makes me uneasy that Maemo has the strongest cards in making these decisions (no one asked me about what I thought about not capitalizing the M, for example.) and its decisions will naturally reflect the opinions of its culture, not mine.
IMHO, The Maemo crowd are and always have been primarily programmers and those who associate with programmers.
The ITT crowd are primarily not programmers.
Of course there are massive exceptions.
But to me, there is a big difference in cultures, causing the proverbial culture clash.
Take the idea of "contributing to the community," for example. I don't think this is that big of a concern to users. But to developers, it is a huge concern.
So, you have two different groups, one very large and one relatively small. When the large group is more or less forced to merge with the small group and adhere to its culture, you have the seeds of rebellion.
I would like to add that a big pretense is made that the new arrangement does not involve a significant power shift. But I heard, for example, discussions of rearranging forums and establishing moderators. This seems to me to mean that someone has power, and it's not me.
I'm not opposed to rearranging forums or using moderators, but it makes me uneasy that Maemo has the strongest cards in making these decisions (no one asked me about what I thought about not capitalizing the M, for example.) and its decisions will naturally reflect the opinions of its culture, not mine.
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2009-05-26
, 23:56
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Posts: 610 |
Thanked: 391 times |
Joined on Feb 2006
@ DC, USA
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#87
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Originally Posted by GeneralAntilles
I've mentioned to you before that, IMHO, you have issues with your interpersonal skills. I remember in a post maybe 3 or 4 or 5 weeks ago, someone posted to you a nice long post suggesting a book that you might find helpful. He added the book info after editing the post, so I don't know if you saw the longer version of the post with the info about the book. But if you haven't seen it, I'd look it up, and consider checking the book out at your local library (if you haven't already).
I'm not interested in dignifying thinly veiled personal attacks with a response.
By the way, it wasn't a personal attack as much as an optimistic assessment of recent behavior. Maybe you've already started reading the book?
Disclaimer: This post is in no way meant as an attack.
Last edited by mullf; 2009-05-26 at 23:58.
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2009-05-27
, 00:23
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Posts: 1,513 |
Thanked: 2,248 times |
Joined on Mar 2006
@ US
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#88
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Originally Posted by dneary
Did you see the proposal where a person's header on the forum would be changed to include maemo.org karma?
Is there really a feeling that the "maemo.org crowd" and the "ITT crowd" are distinct and separate? That somehow the maemo.org crowd are inflicting things on ITT people without taking into account opinions? That would be unfortunate, and certainly far from the way I see this community.
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It would be interesting to get a general karma count for Talk forum members, in particular to see if the Talk regulars are elligible to vote or not (and if not, why not). I think that we will probably find that there are more elligible voters and candidates active on Talk than not active on Talk.
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2009-05-27
, 08:52
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Posts: 2,535 |
Thanked: 6,681 times |
Joined on Mar 2008
@ UK
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#89
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Originally Posted by YoDude
I think you're right. Hopefully the next election will include all members of tmo who have the requisite karma, even if they don't have a maemo.org account. (There's something of an issue if someone has a maemo.org account and a tmo account, and they're not linked. Tricky).
Many members of iTT were not registered members of maemo.org at the time and were not eligible to vote.
So it wasn’t a classic Coup d'état but it doesn’t much matter as it has nothing to do with governance of the organization or the administration of the forum
What steamed the clams of most I believe was that many were not aware of elections or any changes to the forum until a thread asking the question “Why didn’t you vote?” was posted. The ensuing turmoil eventually died down but new threads started popping up suggesting we move this and change that.
If so, I ask again - and I'm trying not to be defensive of this council, the previous, or any of the members - how would you have advertised such things differently?
There is an obvious answer: email everyone's tmo account's email address notifying them about the changes. Perhaps that - as a one time thing - would have been worthwhile? Of course, hindsight is a wonderful thing; and emailing thousands and thousands of people could have been viewed as spam. A tricky balance, and I can't immediately think of any time in the future when it would be as relevant as a communication mechanism.
Again, most registered forum members didn’t get involved.
__________________
Andrew Flegg -- mailto:andrew@bleb.org | http://www.bleb.org
Andrew Flegg -- mailto:andrew@bleb.org | http://www.bleb.org
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2009-05-27
, 09:54
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Posts: 263 |
Thanked: 679 times |
Joined on Apr 2008
@ Lyon, France
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#90
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Originally Posted by YoDude
I can give you the figures for the number of maemo.org accounts at the time of the last election (15,000 approximately). Most of those did not meet the "created more than 3 months before the election, and more than 25 karma" requirement.
What hasn’t been posted was the # of registered users of itT vs. maemo.org. Many members of iTT were not registered members of maemo.org at the time and were not eligible to vote.
Many times more than just 700 I believe…
Originally Posted by YoDude
I see your point. I first heard about the idea of bringing ITT under the maemo.org unbrella around the time of the Maemo Summit last September, where I first met Reggie and Roger. Both were very enthusiastic about the idea, and started talking about it in the forum soon afterwards to gauge reaction. I wasn't aware of any particularly heavy backlash at that stage.
What steamed the clams of most I believe was that many were not aware of elections or any changes to the forum until a thread asking the question “Why didn’t you vote?” was posted. The ensuing turmoil eventually died down but new threads started popping up suggesting we move this and change that.
Again, most registered forum members didn’t get involved. They may have believed that the forum was still administered by Reggie under the terms they agreed to when they first joined the forum. Others may have never imagined a forum run as an ad hoc democracy and didn’t pay these “Hey kids! Why don’t we try this.” threads much mind. And others still may have just come to the forums only to promote or learn about the latest Tablet ideas and applications.
...
Now imagine that for a moment... It was very possible that a member of a maemo.org who had never posted a word on itT would know more about the changes about to take place on itT than a contributing member of itT who has come to the forum almost daily for the past 3 years.
I will defend the karma metrics by saying that forum posts are easier than wiki posts, they are (often) more throw-away comments than something that you hope will be persistent and helpful over a longer period of time to more people. You have a point - someone can copy & paste something from Talk into the wiki & get more karma. This is not a gaming of the system that we've seen yet, but I think it might even be a positive development - I for one want the wiki to be a very useful and valuable resource, and the more people there are adding useful content there, and helping edit and update existing content, the better.
Anyway - thanks for the clarification. I can see how heckles might have been raised, and I appreciate that when people get hot under the collar it can be difficult to be objective in your analysis (I'm as guilty of this as anyone). I hope all involved can appreciate that there is no malicious intent here, and that we're all aiming for the same goals and share similar values of community and helping others out.
Cheers,
Dave.
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What hasn’t been posted was the # of registered users of itT vs. maemo.org. Many members of iTT were not registered members of maemo.org at the time and were not eligible to vote.
Many times more than just 700 I believe…
So it wasn’t a classic Coup d'état but it doesn’t much matter as it has nothing to do with governance of the organization or the administration of the forum
What steamed the clams of most I believe was that many were not aware of elections or any changes to the forum until a thread asking the question “Why didn’t you vote?” was posted. The ensuing turmoil eventually died down but new threads started popping up suggesting we move this and change that.
Again, most registered forum members didn’t get involved. They may have believed that the forum was still administered by Reggie under the terms they agreed to when they first joined the forum. Others may have never imagined a forum run as an ad hoc democracy and didn’t pay these “Hey kids! Why don’t we try this.” threads much mind. And others still may have just come to the forums only to promote or learn about the latest Tablet ideas and applications.
Whatever the reason, a lot of forum members were taken by surprise when the changes did occur. However, a smaller more active group was not surprised because they were members of maemo.org and on various mailing lists and/or monitored the relay channels where discussions about these changes took place.
Now imagine that for a moment... It was very possible that a member of a maemo.org who had never posted a word on itT would know more about the changes about to take place on itT than a contributing member of itT who has come to the forum almost daily for the past 3 years.
That’s when things started to get spicy ‘round here.
The people who were only registered as members of the forum learned that they apparently had been conscripted into the geek squad and any status they perceived they had achieved by contributing to this forum was now somehow stripped until they registered. Even if their papers were in order, somehow forum contributions were calculated at a lower rate than say, posting in a maemo.org Wiki. Some thought they now had to start at the bottom of this new “karma” thing. Others thought that simply cutting a post from the forum and pasting it in the Wiki earned someone more karma than the forum member who actualy composed and posted it on the forum in the first place. Imagine that.
(Social anthropology students may be familiar with the studies conducted by Dr. Suess in Sneetchland during the early ‘60’s that helps explain this phenomenon.)
Some look for an antecedent and consequence to help understand a behaviors dynamics. Now this is only a theory Captain, but it seems that in this case the antecedent was Nokia and the consequence was to increase membership in The Maemo Community.
Things change.