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ragnar is offline ragnar
2009-11-27 , 07:37
Posts: 631 | Thanked: 1,123 times | Joined on Sep 2005 @ Helsinki
#81
Originally Posted by cb474 View Post
They were basically disappointed with the camera. They noted right away that the camera application is "basic" and missing features. And they found the actual image quality to be "about average" for 5MP phone cameras, with "pretty high" image noise.
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But to me this further confirms my feeling that the N900 camera function was rushed out the door and/or not a priority. If I accept MountainX's argument that it's better to keep it simple and add features later, then Nokia ought to at least have focused on having the images and video created be high quality. But they even fall short here, compared to other devices currently on the market from Nokia themselves.
Well, the simplest way is just to just look at the N900 photo stream in Flickr:

http://www.flickr.com/groups/1184299@N24/pool/

81 members, so it's a really wide selection of photos from people taken with the N900, under different times and locations.
 
attila77 is offline attila77
2009-11-27 , 09:14
Posts: 3,319 | Thanked: 5,610 times | Joined on Aug 2008 @ Finland
#82
I wonder if all those reviewers are going to re-review the N900 in, say, a year, when new SSU-s, community fixes and brand new imaging oriented applications will be available ? They (and, well, most reviewers) reviewed it as they would a 'classic' phone, as a what-you-get-shipped-is-what-you're-stuck-with, and that's a paradigm the N900 does not fit.
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cb474 is offline cb474
2009-11-28 , 01:36
Posts: 203 | Thanked: 68 times | Joined on Oct 2009
#83
Originally Posted by ragnar View Post
Well, the simplest way is just to just look at the N900 photo stream in Flickr:

http://www.flickr.com/groups/1184299@N24/pool/

81 members, so it's a really wide selection of photos from people taken with the N900, under different times and locations.
Thanks for the link. It's interesting to see those photos. But it's not a very meaningful way to compare the N900 to other phone cameras, in particular to the N86, which I'm also interested in. Also, those photos are all very small size, which tends to make images from any camera look good. So I find it hard to judge much from those images.

Originally Posted by attila77 View Post
I wonder if all those reviewers are going to re-review the N900 in, say, a year, when new SSU-s, community fixes and brand new imaging oriented applications will be available ? They (and, well, most reviewers) reviewed it as they would a 'classic' phone, as a what-you-get-shipped-is-what-you're-stuck-with, and that's a paradigm the N900 does not fit.
It's true that many reviewers don't tend to come back and re-review a camera after the firmware has been upgraded. I find that annoying. GSMArena is guilty of this. Although All About Symbian tends to be better (they have an All About Maemo site now).

It's not true though that the N900 is in some special category. At least with the high end N series phones and other high end phones, they are not "what-you-get-shipped-is-what-you're-stuck-with." They often have firware upgrades that significantly effect the quality of the images, as well as the features in the camera application. The N86 has already seen updates improving image quality and adding specialized auto-focus features. Perhaps the N900 will see more radical changes, possibilities, and application alternatives come along for the camera. Although that's a big if, since this is uncharted terroritory for development on a phone. But many phone cameras suffer from being reviewed when they first ship and then not getting their reviews updated when the cameras are later improved in firmware. So I don't see that the N900 is especially in a different "paradigm" here with respect to how the reviews treat it.
 
cb474 is offline cb474
2009-11-28 , 03:47
Posts: 203 | Thanked: 68 times | Joined on Oct 2009
#84
Originally Posted by jessi3k3 View Post
Im also concerned about the N900's camera quality (More on the video side) so I made this thread.

http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=35071

Do you guys think it might be a hardware issue (hardware too constrained) or simply a software/firmware issue (needs a better camera app)?
Thanks for the link. It looks like, in that thread, both reviews and forum users who have the N900 are really saying the video recording is subpar. Everyone is seeing the issues with frames being dropped and therefore choppy video.
 
cb474 is offline cb474
2009-11-28 , 04:52
Posts: 203 | Thanked: 68 times | Joined on Oct 2009
#85
Here's the page from the Phonearena review that covers the N900 camera:

http://www.phonearena.com/htmls/Noki..._2318-p_4.html

They generally like the camera application, although they also note there are some missing features. Mostly they focus on the application being well adapted for use with the touch screen.

But they were even more negative than GSMArena about the images. The described the still images as "mediocre."

There is nothing about the images that will impress you and their quality is mediocre. The colors are real, but appear rather thin. The situation with the image details is, however, much worse and the excessive sharpness does away with them almost entirely. Things get worse with snapshots taken in artificial lighting conditions, although worse overall quality in this case can be expected.
The video application they also find to be very sparse, noting like GSMArena that there are almost no options. The video quality itself they say is "nothing to write home about." And they also experience the problem of choppy video, with "clearly visible hang-ups every several seconds."

Phonearena concludes saying:

We aren’t pleased at the performance of the camera of the Nokia N900 at all.
Now note that this review is otherwise extremeley positive and excited about the N900, from beginning to end. They have almost nothing else critical to say. They're even positive about some things that GSMArena was more lukewarm about (like the contacts applicaiton). Their only other substantive complaint was about what they felt to be a lackluster calendar application. But they conclude by calling the N900 an "exceptional device."

So the criticism of the camera and video applications and performance stands out as a particularly dark note in an otherwise pretty positive review. This is very similar to GSMArena.

So I don't know. This makes me hesitate more about the N900's camera. And certainly further solidifies my impression that the camera application was really ignored and rushed out the door, compared to the development put into much of the rest of the device. It seems like the N900's camera is no substitute for the N97 or N95, to say nothing of the N86. So if you want the N900 for other reasons (myself included) it just means taking a step down with the camera application. Yes, maybe in a year, as attilla77 suggests, the bugs will be fixed, the image quality improved, and third party better imaging applications will be available. But by that time Maemo 6 will be out, there will be more Maemo phone devices, Nokia may have improved their own camera application, and who know what else will be available. It just doesn't seem like much of a recommendation for the N900 right now, from the perspective of the camera application.
 

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qole is offline qole
2009-11-28 , 06:46
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#86
Originally Posted by cb474 View Post
Also, those photos are all very small size, which tends to make images from any camera look good. So I find it hard to judge much from those images.
What's "very small size" mean? You do understand how to use Flickr, right? you can click on a photo to go to its photo page, and then click on "all sizes" to see a larger version... Many of the people there are "pro" users, so you can click on "Original Size" on the "all sizes" page and see full resolution.

(EDIT: here's an example)

(EDIT: here's another example, in 3.5 MP mode. Note my choice of low light pictures; they're going to show the most noise)

And cb474, just so you know, you've made your point now. Really.
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Last edited by qole; 2009-11-28 at 06:50.
 
attila77 is offline attila77
2009-11-28 , 12:40
Posts: 3,319 | Thanked: 5,610 times | Joined on Aug 2008 @ Finland
#87
Originally Posted by cb474 View Post
Yes, maybe in a year, as attilla77 suggests, the bugs will be fixed, the image quality improved, and third party better imaging applications will be available. But by that time Maemo 6 will be out, there will be more Maemo phone devices, Nokia may have improved their own camera application, and who know what else will be available.
The one year period was just a made up interval. It might very well be that the next SSU, which should come out it less than a month includes some of these improvements. As for Maemo 6, it's a radical departure from Maemo 5 - there is no guarantee that the rewritten version of the M6 camera app will be any more feature complete than the current one.

Another point - inspired by the results of Moon photos, I took a glimpse at the insides of camera-related stuff. Guys, there are really cool things down there. And for some of that, you don't have to go that deep - take a look at /etc/gdigicam/gdigicam-camerabin.conf - does that wet your hacker lips or what ?

And if you're really hardcore (gdigicam/camerabin level of hardcore), I won't say you can obtain DSLR level control of things, but WAY more is possible than what the 'stock' camera app exposes. Stay tuned.
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cb474 is offline cb474
2009-11-28 , 19:43
Posts: 203 | Thanked: 68 times | Joined on Oct 2009
#88
Originally Posted by qole View Post
What's "very small size" mean? You do understand how to use Flickr, right? you can click on a photo to go to its photo page, and then click on "all sizes" to see a larger version... Many of the people there are "pro" users, so you can click on "Original Size" on the "all sizes" page and see full resolution.)
I don't really use flickr much. Where is the link to the all sizes page? I don't see that. Do you have to be logged in to get that? I don't have a flickr account, since I don't use it.

Originally Posted by qole
And cb474, just so you know, you've made your point now. Really.
Thanks for the obnoxious snarky remark. 1) I started this thread, to discuss the relative merits of the N900 vs. the N86. 2) I made a point about the N900 camera applications seem rushed out the door. 3) I was done with that point a long time ago. 4) But people keep picking up my comments and coming up with a response to what I said about how I don't understand Linux or the development process, etc., and so somehow my criticism of the current state of the N900 camera is unjustified. People also seem like they just can't stand anything negative being said about the N900 (a device which I've repeatedly pointed out that I'm very interested it). 5) So I think it's perfectly legitimate for me to respond to those sometimes rather dismissive critiques of my claim. I have not made my point any more than people have kept responding to it and repeated the other side. Why aren't you directing your snarky remarks at those people as well? I assume because you agree with them and not with me. If you have nothing to add or don't care about the discussion, why don't you just ignore it?
 

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cb474 is offline cb474
2009-11-28 , 19:57
Posts: 203 | Thanked: 68 times | Joined on Oct 2009
#89
Originally Posted by attila77 View Post
The one year period was just a made up interval. It might very well be that the next SSU, which should come out it less than a month includes some of these improvements. As for Maemo 6, it's a radical departure from Maemo 5 - there is no guarantee that the rewritten version of the M6 camera app will be any more feature complete than the current one.
Okay, well you used the one year period, so I was just responding to your claim. Now you're changing your claim. It's true that maybe there will be a bunch of improvements in a month. But I still think the whole idea of defending the demonstrably bad state of the current camera application and the images/video it produces, based on what might come to pass in one month or one year, is not a good reason to buy the device now if the camera is important to you. I'm probably going to wait and see.

But of course, if it does take a year and not a month, then the N900 will have the problem of competing with whatever the new devices are available then. To me it's just a a bit of apples and oranges. It makes sense to compare devices to other currently existing devices and not to future possibilities.

Also it's true that Maemo 6 will be a whole new thing, but I find it really hard to imagine Nokia won't improve the camera app themselves in the intervening year. They have to see that it's not even up to their own standards with other N series camera phones. Why would they just let in languish?

Originally Posted by attila77
Another point - inspired by the results of Moon photos, I took a glimpse at the insides of camera-related stuff. Guys, there are really cool things down there. And for some of that, you don't have to go that deep - take a look at /etc/gdigicam/gdigicam-camerabin.conf - does that wet your hacker lips or what ?

And if you're really hardcore (gdigicam/camerabin level of hardcore), I won't say you can obtain DSLR level control of things, but WAY more is possible than what the 'stock' camera app exposes. Stay tuned.
Can you post the contents of the gdigicam-camerabin.conf file? For those of us who don't have the N900 currently. What options are in it? Thanks for pointing that out. It is cool to know there's more there. And I really do look forward to seeing what might be done with this. I don't really want to have to hack the phone myself though just to achieve results already available in other phone cameras. That's great for some people. Not very realistic for the consumer marketplace.
 
abbra is offline abbra
2009-11-28 , 20:55
Posts: 182 | Thanked: 540 times | Joined on Aug 2009 @ Finland
#90
Originally Posted by cb474 View Post
Can you post the contents of the gdigicam-camerabin.conf file? For those of us who don't have the N900 currently. What options are in it? Thanks for pointing that out. It is cool to know there's more there. And I really do look forward to seeing what might be done with this. I don't really want to have to hack the phone myself though just to achieve results already available in other phone cameras. That's great for some people. Not very realistic for the consumer marketplace.
gdigicam-camerabin.conf allows you to configure what specific GStreamers elements are used when configuring video and still image pipelines. While this is useful for hardcore people, currently users will find nothing useful there. The way camera is configured indeed opens a lot of possiblities for third-party extensions but do not try to be entusiastic right now as end user.
 

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