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| The Following User Says Thank You to suryavanshi For This Useful Post: | ||
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2007-12-22
, 08:03
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Posts: 574 |
Thanked: 166 times |
Joined on Oct 2007
@ BC, Canada
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#2
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Nice attitude.
This isn't Microsoft you know, this is a small team working their butts off. Oh wait, Microsoft isn't perfect either, even with hordes of programmers.
Oh yeah, and Canola cost you how much?
Last edited by technut; 2007-12-22 at 08:07.
This isn't Microsoft you know, this is a small team working their butts off. Oh wait, Microsoft isn't perfect either, even with hordes of programmers.
Oh yeah, and Canola cost you how much?
__________________
Please follow these simple posting guidelines.
There are no stupid questions, just people who didn't search itT (with Google) first.
Please follow these simple posting guidelines.
There are no stupid questions, just people who didn't search itT (with Google) first.
Last edited by technut; 2007-12-22 at 08:07.
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2007-12-22
, 08:13
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Posts: 22 |
Thanked: 11 times |
Joined on Oct 2007
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#3
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I am neither a Microsoft user nor do I care about how microsoft does business.
I am a Linux user and I truly believe that open source model of development provides the best solutions, applications, documentation and support. Thats is the reason I bought the N800.
Canola might have had done better if it were open source with people like you and me contributing to documentation, feedback, etc.
I am a Linux user and I truly believe that open source model of development provides the best solutions, applications, documentation and support. Thats is the reason I bought the N800.
Canola might have had done better if it were open source with people like you and me contributing to documentation, feedback, etc.
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2007-12-22
, 08:21
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Posts: 574 |
Thanked: 166 times |
Joined on Oct 2007
@ BC, Canada
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#4
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Personally, I'm grateful for ANY free software.
I'm not saying your comments aren't worthwhile, but why beat the guys down prior to offering your suggestions for improvement? If you had paid for it, then maybe you'd have some justification for griping about the state of the release, but that's not the case here.
In the spirit of open source, maybe you'd like to offer the Canola team your time to improve on the things you are complaining about?
I'm not saying your comments aren't worthwhile, but why beat the guys down prior to offering your suggestions for improvement? If you had paid for it, then maybe you'd have some justification for griping about the state of the release, but that's not the case here.
In the spirit of open source, maybe you'd like to offer the Canola team your time to improve on the things you are complaining about?
__________________
Please follow these simple posting guidelines.
There are no stupid questions, just people who didn't search itT (with Google) first.
Please follow these simple posting guidelines.
There are no stupid questions, just people who didn't search itT (with Google) first.
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2007-12-22
, 08:25
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Posts: 550 |
Thanked: 110 times |
Joined on Aug 2006
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#5
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This is a BETA release. If you have substantive, particular complaints, document them in detail, suggest a prefered behavior and submit them to the authors. The Canola team has been working their butts off and they are quite responsive to community feedback.
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2007-12-22
, 08:29
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Posts: 22 |
Thanked: 11 times |
Joined on Oct 2007
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#6
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if canola was open source i would have!
also I am sick and tired of this philosophy that some how open source is inferior to any proprietary crap. firefox, ubuntu, apache, php, mysql, and so many other apps prove contrary to this philosophy.
For a closed source project, all i can do is give feedback after release, which is exactly what i have done.
if they can take the feedback and act on it, i will try and use the software, otherwise i am quite happy with opensource alternatives like UKMP
also I am sick and tired of this philosophy that some how open source is inferior to any proprietary crap. firefox, ubuntu, apache, php, mysql, and so many other apps prove contrary to this philosophy.
For a closed source project, all i can do is give feedback after release, which is exactly what i have done.
if they can take the feedback and act on it, i will try and use the software, otherwise i am quite happy with opensource alternatives like UKMP
| The Following User Says Thank You to suryavanshi For This Useful Post: | ||
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2007-12-22
, 09:44
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Posts: 56 |
Thanked: 12 times |
Joined on Nov 2007
@ Brooklyn, NY
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#7
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Meh. You have legitimate concerns, and I absolutely agree with you that whether you're a small fry or a big software house, whether your software is free or for a fee, you should have the same standards when it comes to usability and being error free. But I have to agree with Rocketman - as beta software your comments are better suited to a developer's feedback forum and your tone should be one of helpfulness not *****ing and moaning. Oh, and give the open-source-horse a rest; it might be in their best interest to set the source free, but it also might not. Just because it's not open source doesn't mean it's evil.
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2007-12-22
, 10:59
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Posts: 393 |
Thanked: 112 times |
Joined on Jul 2007
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#8
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Right - guys.
Canola have a great dev team who are only too open and happy to hear about our concerns as long as they're voiced well enough - and I don't personally see any issues with what suryavanshi has said. I'm sure critique won't be taken in any negative light - quite the opposite really - it helps build better software.
I think some of what suryavanshi has said is true. Beta or not - there are usability issues that need to be addressed and its better to address those now than later.
suryavanshi: there's a feedback form on canola's page where you can voice your issues.
Also - there is #canola on freenode where you can voice concerns, issues, etc to the team directly.
I was on #canola yesterday for the first time and I can tell you they're a great bunch of guys who WANT feedback! Positive or not!
Canola have a great dev team who are only too open and happy to hear about our concerns as long as they're voiced well enough - and I don't personally see any issues with what suryavanshi has said. I'm sure critique won't be taken in any negative light - quite the opposite really - it helps build better software.
I think some of what suryavanshi has said is true. Beta or not - there are usability issues that need to be addressed and its better to address those now than later.
suryavanshi: there's a feedback form on canola's page where you can voice your issues.
Also - there is #canola on freenode where you can voice concerns, issues, etc to the team directly.
I was on #canola yesterday for the first time and I can tell you they're a great bunch of guys who WANT feedback! Positive or not!
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2007-12-22
, 11:21
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Posts: 1,412 |
Thanked: 594 times |
Joined on Aug 2005
@ Recife, Brazil
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#9
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=)
Critics are way more welcomed than compliments for the simple fact that they test my arguments =)
So let's go :
I will start with one thing: Usability taken a back seat. Sorry it didn't. This was the driven, and we changed the things were wrong in canola1, we improved them, we make things more consistent and everything in my sight is better now.
examples:
1) no scrolling arrows in home screen (in our usability studies people didn't saw those)
2) outside of application configuration (too complicated for end users)
3) no indication of what was a folder, what was an item (it's already on the configuration part will enter the regular part)
4) no shuffle / repeat easy way to do
5) no way to create playlist (already designed going into final version)
6) no way to generate properly video thumbnails (ready to go in the final version)
7) REAL, usable, not a batch download cover art : READY, more usable than that I can doubt (take a look at my videos at WUD in marceloeduardo.blip.tv ) you slide the cover you get meaningful suggestions you choose, and if you're mistake.. duh you can go back and change for that specific single version.
Now the real problem : we are a small company and thus we need to comply with legal rules and it's illegal to download album art (or lyrics as one of our plugins did) so they were unfortunately removed. We are thinking a way to override that.
that said, I can tell you that usability was more than that.. we entered Ia did a lot of research with the deadline we had, but we still a pretty small team, and the deadline was not set by us. So the beta is 80% complete, we needed real feedback (I believe in users really using it no lab tests) and we are going to fix what we think is really a matter for our UI / interaction vision / goal.
Amidst the hype and downed servers, Canola 2 Beta was launched. This was Canola teams first mistake.
- It was not our decision. But we cannot say that it was not a mistake. But please don't blame the messenger.
Either it should have been released before or well after the release of OS 2008. The server debacle should have been expected and anticipated by the team
-most of people knew our plans (dec 12th) unfortunately things changes. That's the deal.
The iphone / itouch hype contributed to the Canola team concentrating too much on eye candy, with usability taking a complete backseat.
- Answered on top. I really really disagree, and we did it with all the care, avoid exagerations (like reflections, 3d and whatsoever)
1. Adequate help documentation
- It's our way, it's a beta and we have only videos and 1 to 1 help. like you can browser on the forums and see almost every single doubt answered. I am on vacations and have answered hundreds of emails that goes in my personal inbox, because for me.. each case is a case. And I also don't believe in help documentation .. if you need it you really did something wrong in the usability matter. The things that would be missing for those are the ways of downloading this or that... but this is out of the scope. Users, the ones we want to reach more,. don't read that much manuals, so our videos are the manual for the crucial things. Of course learning is a iterative process and just for the emails I already know what needs to be documented or not.
2. List of known issues
- we are writing, and there's a section for this under the development. was taken because is empty. And again: people don't read it that much (our comparisions access x email sent says that only 25% reads those kinds of plus info) and I can guarantee you a lot of people with Maemo devices don't know what a "repository is" and I think they have no need to do so : )
Animations - Choppy.
- We are pushing the hardware limits, using python and working as hard as time permits. There has been no real time for optmizations and some screens fails a little bit more (photo thumbnails) but the worst part is also tearing. it helps make things look worse. But I will not argue. I will just say : we are going to update it and maybe still a little choppy. but we prefer this than static.
Album Covers - No idea how they are downloaded.
- answered above. They were removed because of legal issues. Here goes what you said : you really should keep your right of choice and go with Kagu and UKMP that are great software powered by (Python - ported, fully binded, optimized by who? US) =) and I will still be very proud of this.
Images - Landscape ?
Yes. We want to be different, I knew that some people would hate it, but you don't like it, but you can browse the history and see how many people were really happy with it. and I am also. If you're not talking about that but that most of picutres are appearing in landcaspe : / yeah.. it's a bug :/ will be fixed.
Podcasts/Internet Radio - Cutting and Pasting URL is not easily done
- this is true. I asked a MBrowser extension to my browser buddies and will be done, if the user wants will appear "add to canola" cut and paste is not a good solution but we don't want to take the users flexibility to do not add to canola if they do not like it's podcast..etc. But Agreed is way beyond were it should be.. but we are VERY aware of that. We use canola =)
Albums - Gets repeated for each song in the album
- unm.. seems like a bug : / if it's not being fixed right now will be.
Looking forward to more concentration on usability and cutting choppy animations for smoother user experience. Better end user documentation
- Ok, if you didn't noticed.. what we want is smoother animations =) and we running against a cpu and a video bus that doesn't help us that much, and we removed a lot of them, but for example do the test with have with canola with your version of UKMP =)
put 1000 albums (album arts) and scroll. then do the same in canola. Tell me the results.
I think you just missed one thing in this whole thing : we are here to push the little bit, we pay a price (choppyness) but we are figuring out how to solve them one by one. But I really believe that most of the cases is already ok (not GOODDD) but ok, and it will improve=)
anyways, this was the best feedback, and I needed to agree with somethings disagree with others.. but in the end.. I think it's really helpful and put also my concepts in test. Of course I will not be able to please everyone with my ideas, but then I got happy to know that you guys have choice (and a open source choices)
BR
Marcelo
Critics are way more welcomed than compliments for the simple fact that they test my arguments =)
So let's go :
I will start with one thing: Usability taken a back seat. Sorry it didn't. This was the driven, and we changed the things were wrong in canola1, we improved them, we make things more consistent and everything in my sight is better now.
examples:
1) no scrolling arrows in home screen (in our usability studies people didn't saw those)
2) outside of application configuration (too complicated for end users)
3) no indication of what was a folder, what was an item (it's already on the configuration part will enter the regular part)
4) no shuffle / repeat easy way to do
5) no way to create playlist (already designed going into final version)
6) no way to generate properly video thumbnails (ready to go in the final version)
7) REAL, usable, not a batch download cover art : READY, more usable than that I can doubt (take a look at my videos at WUD in marceloeduardo.blip.tv ) you slide the cover you get meaningful suggestions you choose, and if you're mistake.. duh you can go back and change for that specific single version.
Now the real problem : we are a small company and thus we need to comply with legal rules and it's illegal to download album art (or lyrics as one of our plugins did) so they were unfortunately removed. We are thinking a way to override that.
that said, I can tell you that usability was more than that.. we entered Ia did a lot of research with the deadline we had, but we still a pretty small team, and the deadline was not set by us. So the beta is 80% complete, we needed real feedback (I believe in users really using it no lab tests) and we are going to fix what we think is really a matter for our UI / interaction vision / goal.
Amidst the hype and downed servers, Canola 2 Beta was launched. This was Canola teams first mistake.
- It was not our decision. But we cannot say that it was not a mistake. But please don't blame the messenger.
Either it should have been released before or well after the release of OS 2008. The server debacle should have been expected and anticipated by the team
-most of people knew our plans (dec 12th) unfortunately things changes. That's the deal.
The iphone / itouch hype contributed to the Canola team concentrating too much on eye candy, with usability taking a complete backseat.
- Answered on top. I really really disagree, and we did it with all the care, avoid exagerations (like reflections, 3d and whatsoever)
1. Adequate help documentation
- It's our way, it's a beta and we have only videos and 1 to 1 help. like you can browser on the forums and see almost every single doubt answered. I am on vacations and have answered hundreds of emails that goes in my personal inbox, because for me.. each case is a case. And I also don't believe in help documentation .. if you need it you really did something wrong in the usability matter. The things that would be missing for those are the ways of downloading this or that... but this is out of the scope. Users, the ones we want to reach more,. don't read that much manuals, so our videos are the manual for the crucial things. Of course learning is a iterative process and just for the emails I already know what needs to be documented or not.
2. List of known issues
- we are writing, and there's a section for this under the development. was taken because is empty. And again: people don't read it that much (our comparisions access x email sent says that only 25% reads those kinds of plus info) and I can guarantee you a lot of people with Maemo devices don't know what a "repository is" and I think they have no need to do so : )
Animations - Choppy.
- We are pushing the hardware limits, using python and working as hard as time permits. There has been no real time for optmizations and some screens fails a little bit more (photo thumbnails) but the worst part is also tearing. it helps make things look worse. But I will not argue. I will just say : we are going to update it and maybe still a little choppy. but we prefer this than static.
Album Covers - No idea how they are downloaded.
- answered above. They were removed because of legal issues. Here goes what you said : you really should keep your right of choice and go with Kagu and UKMP that are great software powered by (Python - ported, fully binded, optimized by who? US) =) and I will still be very proud of this.
Images - Landscape ?
Yes. We want to be different, I knew that some people would hate it, but you don't like it, but you can browse the history and see how many people were really happy with it. and I am also. If you're not talking about that but that most of picutres are appearing in landcaspe : / yeah.. it's a bug :/ will be fixed.
Podcasts/Internet Radio - Cutting and Pasting URL is not easily done
- this is true. I asked a MBrowser extension to my browser buddies and will be done, if the user wants will appear "add to canola" cut and paste is not a good solution but we don't want to take the users flexibility to do not add to canola if they do not like it's podcast..etc. But Agreed is way beyond were it should be.. but we are VERY aware of that. We use canola =)
Albums - Gets repeated for each song in the album
- unm.. seems like a bug : / if it's not being fixed right now will be.
Looking forward to more concentration on usability and cutting choppy animations for smoother user experience. Better end user documentation
- Ok, if you didn't noticed.. what we want is smoother animations =) and we running against a cpu and a video bus that doesn't help us that much, and we removed a lot of them, but for example do the test with have with canola with your version of UKMP =)
put 1000 albums (album arts) and scroll. then do the same in canola. Tell me the results.
I think you just missed one thing in this whole thing : we are here to push the little bit, we pay a price (choppyness) but we are figuring out how to solve them one by one. But I really believe that most of the cases is already ok (not GOODDD) but ok, and it will improve=)
anyways, this was the best feedback, and I needed to agree with somethings disagree with others.. but in the end.. I think it's really helpful and put also my concepts in test. Of course I will not be able to please everyone with my ideas, but then I got happy to know that you guys have choice (and a open source choices)
BR
Marcelo
| The Following 13 Users Say Thank You to handful For This Useful Post: | ||
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2007-12-22
, 11:24
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Posts: 356 |
Thanked: 27 times |
Joined on Jun 2006
@ Madrid, Spain
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#10
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To help Canola to improve please add a bug report for things you would like to see, you can check first as it may have already been been added at. https://garage.maemo.org/tracker/?fu...=125&atid=1989
You BET I Stream! 
The iphone / itouch hype contributed to the Canola team concentrating too much on eye candy, with usability taking a complete backseat.
1. Adequate help documentation
2. List of known issues
The above may have helped a bit with usability issues but is are unavailable.
Animations - Choppy.
Album Covers - No idea how they are downloaded.
Images - Landscape ?
Podcasts/Internet Radio - Cutting and Pasting URL is not easily done
Albums - Gets repeated for each song in the album
Looking forward to more concentration on usability and cutting choppy animations for smoother user experience. Better end user documentation