handwriting: why up/downcase distinction?
 

Is there a way to disable the distinction between upper and downcase letters for handwriting recognition?

I've been a Palm user and it was much more convenient to use the same signs for upper and down case letter. N810's behaviour feels like a keyboard having distinct keys for 'a' and 'A'.

Raph

Re: handwriting: why up/downcase distinction?
 

Control panel > Text input settings > On-screen > Handwriting case correction

Re: handwriting: why up/downcase distinction?
 

either I was not clear enough or I misunderstand your answer:
I want to be able to enter the 'a' and 'A' with the same sign, but by switching to mode uppercase, just like the sift key does on a keyboard.

this option doesn't seem to enable this. My understanding is that it's for putting an uppercase at the start of a sentence.

Raph

Re: handwriting: why up/downcase distinction?
 

There's no way to get what you want from the standard HWR input method.
The platform permits input plug-ins to be made; a graffiti input method could be made, with enough room for the various keys (that don't map into HWR glyphs) off to one side.

Unfortunately, no one has made one yet. :(

Re: handwriting: why up/downcase distinction?
 

It's hard for me to believe anyone at Nokia really took handwriting recognition seriously. It just didn't work well when I tried it, and I had been looking forward to using it. I think the fact that the 810 comes with a keyboard is a white flag of surrender on the handwriting recog front.

Re: handwriting: why up/downcase distinction?
 

The option to capitalize the first word of a new sentence is
Control panel > Text input settings > Languages > Settings > Auto-capitalization

As for using the same character and using a "shift" key for capitalization, since the OSK doesn't have a "shift" key I don't believe this is possible.

Re: handwriting: why up/downcase distinction?
 

Thanks for the response. the N810 is really great, but this limited handwriting recognition is a disappointment :(

Benson: any link on how to make such a plugin?

Raph

Re: handwriting: why up/downcase distinction?
 

The funny part is... in Garnet VM you get super-awesome Graffiti 1. It's such a relieve to use Graffiti 1 after having to wrangle with Graffiti 2 POS on the Palm TX... Kinda ironic...

Re: handwriting: why up/downcase distinction?
 

Handwriting works fine for me, as long as you take the time to correct the mistakes. It learns pretty quickly, at least with my handwriting.

I'm sure there are a lot of options that could be added though, as this thread points out. And I would LOVE to have an app which could understand joined-up handwriting.

Re: handwriting: why up/downcase distinction?
 

Re: handwriting: why up/downcase distinction?
 

To my knowledge, nothing has been done with that "release", most likely because the "Hildon Input Method Framework" sux big donkey balls.

As a concept, Nokia's handwriting input method is fifteen to twenty years old, relying on the stupidest of all thinkable modularity models (with the possible exception of the Zaurus HWR, which actually requires the user to open the input box by hand!) and provided with an AI that is reminiscent of Red Dwarf's Holly in its lousier days.

In short, HWR on the Itablets sucks, and open sourcing it doesn't make it suddenly less suckier.

But don't mind me, I'm just a grumpy old fart who refuses to go "Woohoo!" every time some PHB at Nokia takes a dump.

(... which is kinda ironic, given that farts usually precede the faeces)

Re: handwriting: why up/downcase distinction?
 

It's worth keeping in mind that the handwriting recognition system in Palm (Graffiti) was designed not as a continuous-handwriting recognition system but as a "block entry" system (a human computer interface input term). Hence the simplification of input strokes and the idea of character modifiers like the "shift/cap stroke" (stroke-up) or the "character stroke" (tap) on the writing area.

So, in an ideal world we could just install a Graffiti input control into the N8x0 system and be done with it, but no such beast exists.

Back when had a Treo 180 with the graffiti pad, I used this and really liked the input pattern:
http://mrl.nyu.edu/~perlin/demos/Quikwrite2.html

It would be cool to port that input method to Maemo/Hildon UI... hrm...

cheers,
Etienne

Re: handwriting: why up/downcase distinction?
 

No, but it opens the door for putting something somewhat less sucky in its place. I think a graffiti-like system should work flawlessly*, if some open-source implementation and some sharp maemo developer collide properly.

* Flawlessly here denotes that it works like on a Palm, with no glitches caused by the collision of two stupidly thinkable modularity models :D, rather than that it constitutes a real HWR system, let alone a good one.)

Re: handwriting: why up/downcase distinction?
 

I consider Palm's Graffiti only marginally better than the Itablet's mess, and Jot (also known as Graffiti2) as the better of both, mainly because it allows for full-screen text entry. The only reason Graffiti seems fast, is because it forces the user to train and adapt to the computer, which is frankly ridiculous if you think about it.

And am I really the only one who thinks a dedicated text input area is soooo nineteen nineties?

Re: handwriting: why up/downcase distinction?
 

Ridiculous, perhaps, but it's been that way for ever. Keyboards are not well adapted to human input; humans adapt to keyboards. Automotive controls and even writing systems themselves are shaped largely by implementation cost. Adapting a human is much cheaper than adapting a machine.

Of course, technology has advanced since the first Palms a long way, and it's to be expected we can come up with something with less adaptation on the user's part. But to me Graffiti seems much better than the HWR on the tablet, because it does one thing well. It uses one simplified (for greater recognizability) alphabet. And yes, you do have to learn that, just like learning touch-typing.

But the NITs' HWR tries to match many slightly different alphabets, each with less differentiation of characters, and fails. So you wind up with the need to re-train yourself anyway, if only for the worst few letters. If you can't get genuine adaptive HWR right, you shouldn't do it.

I'm not persuaded that the Newton's way of letting you write anywhere is such a great one; I'm not persuaded against it either, never having had a Newton. (I do know it, even confined to the dedicated area of a hildon-input-method, would spank the Nokia's HWR.) But one thing I can say against it: It inhibits porting of programs from "normal" OSes. When programs expect mouse and keyboard input, stylus and some dedicated text input method is one of the easiest ways to make that work. Maybe it should only be a fallback system, but for a device I use the way I use my N800, it must be there, and it must work right; hence my use of the finger keyboard at present. If graffiti or similar was available, I'd almost certainly switch.

Re: handwriting: why up/downcase distinction?
 

I would certainly switch to using a Graffiti 1 style input if one became available. Even with my Palm TX, I hacked it to use Graffiti 1 because I thought Graffiti 2 was a step backwards. (I never could get used to using two strokes for 'i' and 't'.) However, I think that Palms were designed primarily for English speakers. The NIT's Unix-based design easily allows for other languages. (Well, maybe not 'easily' for Asian languages.) I think it may be difficult to create a Graffiti type input that works for multiple languages (if one is ever created at all).

Re: handwriting: why up/downcase distinction?
 

PenOffice uses the same HWR engine as the Newton (well, not exactly. Newtons had two HWR engines: Rosetta, developed by Apple, and ParaGraph, which is used by PenOffice. But I digress); it runs on Windows and basically sends keyboard calls to the operating system.

PenOffice works with every Windows program I've thrown at it. It's not as smooth as a Newton, but the modality is very well hidden and rather intuitive (you need to hold the stylus still for just a tad longer to switch from ink drawing to pointing) and it works with active and passive digitizers.

So it's not that it can't be done -- it has been done! -- but rather that it needs a developer with some cognitive ability.

Re: handwriting: why up/downcase distinction?
 

Had heard of PenOffice, but didn't realize it was... that nice. I almost want to buy it just to install it on my desktop and use it via rdp. The wierd thing is, it seems as though it would actually work that way (i.e. plain mouse events are enough for it).

EDIT: Just remembered I saw a download link; went back, and whaddaya know? Free 30-day trial. So at some point, I will try it on Windows via RDP. It'd be a shame if the N800 turned out to be more useful for note-taking that way. But I guess we already know it's a shame...

Re: handwriting: why up/downcase distinction?
 

I've been using it on my tablet pcs for two years and I love it. It's not as good as my old Newtons because -- well, because it's Windows, frankly. But it'll do.


Edit: Benson, don't forget to try out PenCommander. It's one of the most amazing visual macro systems I've ever come across.

Yes, I know: I can type much faster than I can write (I'm a ten-finger typist), but I can write where I cannot type and I repeat the major advantage HWR has over any keyboard: You're not writing blind! HWR is (aside from speech recognition) the only input method where you can keep your eyes on the screen and still see what your hand is doing.

(Now eagerly awaiting seedy remarks about seeing what's going on on the screen and what your hand is doing and -- Oh, soddit! get on with the pr0n jokes already)

Re: handwriting: why up/downcase distinction?
 

Thanks!

Not sure how you mean that; as opposed to big-fat-finger effect, or opposed to looking back and forth between input widget and destination widget?

The former is of course answered by the stylus-board, or even use of stylus on finger-board. (I find myself doing this when I wish to type a lot without getting my BT keyboard; like right now.)

The latter is answered by the old flying-keyboard xterm; a limited use to be sure, but I can't imagine liking any HWR better for running a terminal. Some things are really made for keyboarding.
And writing on paper, I'm hardly ever looking at my hand; yes, my writing's sloppy, but humans can read it anyway, even with the clumsy printed alphabet. (I don't do cursive; I can't even read that.) With an optimized (single-stroke) alphabet, you shouldn't have to look at the writing area.

Re: handwriting: why up/downcase distinction?
 

Unfortunately, I need to agree to everything written above: Handwriting recognition in OS 2008 is bad and barely usable.

Eleven years ago, I owned a Apple Newton 2100 and - after a little bit of training - the handwriting recognition just worked for me. Close to perfect. It was much better than hwr on the N800. I am very disappointed about the implementation. Nokia / Maemo should do better!

Is there any development on a better hwr implementation? This feature is really needed!

Thanks, Gerald

Re: handwriting: why up/downcase distinction?
 

No. Nokia isn't in the least bit interested in HWR and I've all but given up hope to ever have Newton-quality HWR in Linux.

So I'll keep using PenOffice on my XP tablet until that kicks the bucket, but my next handheld is going to be the unambiguously keyboard-based Pandora. I seriously doubt I'll ever buy another Nokia handheld again; certainly not if they're only interested in becoming yet another iPhone (<spit!>) knockoff.

Re: handwriting: why up/downcase distinction?
 

Really, he didn't ask about Newton-quality, he asked about "a better hwr implementation". Unfortunately, that seems to be lacking as well. But it is possible to do better; all I have to do is get enough time, and I'd try to make something better. Could it turn out worse?

Re: handwriting: why up/downcase distinction?
 

Actually... yes. The "HWR" on my Archos PMA430 somehow manages to suck even worse than Meamo's. In its (flimsy) defense, it's quite a lot older than my N800 as well.

And I believe there's some sort of threshold involved with HWR appreciation; below it different implementations will only be able to suck less or more; above lies HWR heaven, where you don't even notice you're writing stuff down. The border might be around PenOffice's level. Obviously only Newtons live in heaven. :rolleyes:

Re: handwriting: why up/downcase distinction?
 

HWR is rather tricky also because of the intellectual property right issues: there are _many_ patents held by different companies on various features, and they make it naturally tricky for others to keep on improving the overall experience - you'll just start breaking the patents.

(You can look it the other way round, if it would be easy to do, then there would almost certainly be already good open source alternatives available, since there is is the need...)

Re: handwriting: why up/downcase distinction?
 

I seriously think that good handwriting recognition is not all that necessary. What IS needed is a really good app for notetaking when you recognize your OWN handwriting. The best app now for that is probably Xournal; the only problem if you are taking notes quickly in a class would be that it would be too much trouble to keep starting a new page. You should just have an extremely long page to work with so you can take an hour or so's worth of notes without starting a new page.

Then, after the lecture is over , you can reread your notes, organize them better, and put them in Notecase or something if you want to make them permanent.

Re: handwriting: why up/downcase distinction?
 

I've lost the bookmark, but a few years ago someone wrote on one of the Linux HWR projects that he had developed a natural handwriting algorithm which he would like to "inject" into that particular project (I'm thinking it was X-stroke, but it could have been any of the others). So there was at least one "free" algorithm around.

Basically, any HWR that's worth its musterd is going to use a neural network for recognition, coupled with good dictionaries. The only IP is in the preconfigured NN's "knowledge", nobody can stop you from setting up and distributing your own training.

Re: handwriting: why up/downcase distinction?
 

If that's what you want, buy some paper and a pencil, because a computer-based notepad is not going to give you any significant advantage over the old-school solution.

I know this for certain, because the good old Newton allowed you to enter notes in "digital ink", and I tried this. Trust me, it is not good. You'll end up squinting at a low-res version of your own handwriting, on a petite screen where you have to scroll every five seconds. You can't insert text easily on the fly, corrections are a b*tch, repositioning text is nigh-on impossible. At least Newton ink had one advantage: A cursor. If enabled, ink text could be scribbled everywhere on the screen, but would be inserted at the current cursor position. I'm not sure if Xournal can do that, but if not, you're going to squint even more, trying to get the ink where you want it to go.

Luckily, Newtons recognize my handwriting almost as quickly as I scribble it down; I can write big or small, the text is allways converted into the same easily readable font; I can correct or insert text using simple, intuitive gestures and copy-paste is a straightforward select-and-drag.

And best of all, I end up with notes that I can still decypher six months later.:rolleyes:

Re: handwriting: why up/downcase distinction?
 

I just got my N800 yesterday, and so have had limited time to play around with it, but one of the things I'm hoping for is a OneNote like application for the Nokia. By this I mean a program that allows you to take notes using either a keyboard or hwr...but easily insert a drawn diagram in the middle of the flow. Is this something that Xournal is used for? If not is there another program that would be good for this?

Re: handwriting: why up/downcase distinction?
 

Yes. and apparently MaemopadPlus, too.