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geohsia	2011-09-28 , 23:33
Posts: 515 \| Thanked: 259 times \| Joined on Jan 2010	#21

Originally Posted by danramos

Sadly, it WOULD be... but it WON'T be. (See the open-core, close-source conversation above.)

Agreed. I think CSSU is all we have so in the end, the whole MeeGo thing really just a distraction.

Ultimately by going the community route they killed the very thing the community wanted. Ironic.

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	danramos	2011-09-28 , 23:50
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Originally Posted by geohsia

Agreed. I think CSSU is all we have so in the end, the whole MeeGo thing really just a distraction.

Ultimately by going the community route they killed the very thing the community wanted. Ironic.

I'm not sure that the community route was what killed it, really. In fact, I think the problem Nokia always had was that it distanced itself from the community as much as it could and did very little of the very things they kept enticing and bragging about out in the open (i.e. opening up code, listening to customers, support, etc.) but doing very little about behind their own closed doors, despite even some of the efforts of engineers on the inside to do or at least advocate much of the things Nokia should have done as policy.

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	volt	2011-09-29 , 00:15
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How many hours worth of core business-centric code do these guys expect they get to buy away from Nokia's software libraries for $100?

*disbelief*

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	danramos	2011-09-29 , 00:36
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Originally Posted by volt

How many hours worth of core business-centric code do these guys expect they get to buy away from Nokia's software libraries for $100?

*disbelief*

I'm not sure they care. Whatever's missing they'll make up in their OWN (or community) software libraries. Nokia has effectively guaranteed their own irrelevance--doubly so by pairing with Microsoft.

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geohsia	2011-09-29 , 00:48
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Originally Posted by danramos

I'm not sure that the community route was what killed it, really. In fact, I think the problem Nokia always had was that it distanced itself from the community as much as it could and did very little of the very things they kept enticing and bragging about out in the open (i.e. opening up code, listening to customers, support, etc.) but doing very little about behind their own closed doors, despite even some of the efforts of engineers on the inside to do or at least advocate much of the things Nokia should have done as policy.

If Nokia wasn't interested in the community I don't think they would have gone with MeeGo.

Though I understand your criticism, I think Harmattan / N9 turned out pretty well from what I've seen and it certainly wasn't because they opened the code or did any of the things you think they should have done.

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	danramos	2011-09-29 , 01:48
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Originally Posted by geohsia

If Nokia wasn't interested in the community I don't think they would have gone with MeeGo.

Though I understand your criticism, I think Harmattan / N9 turned out pretty well from what I've seen and it certainly wasn't because they opened the code or did any of the things you think they should have done.

Imagine how much better it could have been, had they developed code in cooperation with the community they portend to work with, instead of the confused mess they ended up with. I haven't used an N9 yet--I suspect you haven't either--but of what I've seen I wasn't impressed with. I think they could have made it far more flexible and capable than it is. The hardware has a few shining good features, but on the whole it's unimpressively closed too and will be difficult to repair. Oh well.

As i said... nothing better than what others are doing. Nokia really needed an ADVANTAGE. The N9 doesn't appear to be it and they've wasted all their opportunities.

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geohsia	2011-09-29 , 02:04
Posts: 515 \| Thanked: 259 times \| Joined on Jan 2010	#27

Originally Posted by danramos

Imagine how much better it could have been, had they developed code in cooperation with the community they portend to work with, instead of the confused mess they ended up with. I haven't used an N9 yet--I suspect you haven't either--

To me Harmattan delivers what I thought Maemo 6 should have delivered.

but of what I've seen I wasn't impressed with. I think they could have made it far more flexible and capable than it is.

What does it not do?

The hardware has a few shining good features, but on the whole it's unimpressively closed too and will be difficult to repair. Oh well.

I don't agree but we can agree to disagree.

As i said... nothing better than what others are doing. Nokia really needed an ADVANTAGE. The N9 doesn't appear to be it and they've wasted all their opportunities.

They certainly have an uphill battle and yes, they had their chance. I won't say it's over though. There is still a lot of game to be played.

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	danramos	2011-09-29 , 02:37
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Originally Posted by geohsia

To me Harmattan delivers what I thought Maemo 6 should have delivered.

Well, when you put it in 'what *I* thought' terms, how can there be a debate about it?

Originally Posted by geohsia

What does it not do?

It does not allow you to, once again, replace components of the system or interface without ruining said system/interface... just like Maemo. It does not actually do much of what I expect from Linux--flexibility of software--given the closed-down nature of the kernel (if you try to compile your own to support some features, you're left in a difficult situation for support of hardware components.. again). Harmattan also lacks the ability to run on other hardware--something that at least MeeGo does (or is trying to) do. The N9, as a handset, lacks a replaceable battery, it lacks any kind of expansion (SDHC or microSDHC), it's just--sadly--limited. Sure it has a lovely looking body and an attractive AMOLED screen, but there's an array of similar or better (Samsung's SuperAMOLED+ for example... and even in higher resolutions) than the N9 already available.

It's just too little, too late and there isn't even that ONE great advantage that Nokia COULD have taken advantage of: Open-source and community. Sadly, even the Android crowd has managed to do more with far less openness.

Originally Posted by geohsia

I don't agree but we can agree to disagree.

You don't have to agree, just take a look around the XDA forums alone for some evidence of progress everywhere else.

Originally Posted by geohsia

They certainly have an uphill battle and yes, they had their chance. I won't say it's over though. There is still a lot of game to be played.

I still hold out a glimmer of hope, yes, but I really don't think Nokia is interested in listening to us despite the successes of Google, Red Hat, Canonical and other far more open-source and community-friendly high-tech companies that have successfully competed against Microsoft and appears to be winning.

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geohsia	2011-09-29 , 03:06
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Originally Posted by danramos

Well, when you put it in 'what *I* thought' terms, how can there be a debate about it?

;-)

It does not allow you to, once again, replace components of the system or interface without ruining said system/interface... just like Maemo.

This is my point. That was what MeeGo was for. Where are we now?

I agree though that Harmattan doesn't have it but I think Swipe is pretty sweet. Much nicer than any skin I've seen on Maemo. No disrespect to those who have made customizations to Maemo.

It does not actually do much of what I expect from Linux--flexibility of software--given the closed-down nature of the kernel (if you try to compile your own to support some features, you're left in a difficult situation for support of hardware components.. again).

Yup, you're right. Again, MeeGo met that criteria. I'm arguing your previous point that MeeGo wasn't Nokia's attempt at supporting the community.

Harmattan also lacks the ability to run on other hardware--something that at least MeeGo does (or is trying to) do.

Haha. They barely are able to get it out on the N9 and you want it on multiple. Let's not get too greedy now.

The N9, as a handset, lacks a replaceable battery, it lacks any kind of expansion (SDHC or microSDHC), it's just--sadly--limited.

Yeah I agree with that, but how many phones support more than 64GB's of storage? Not many I don't think.

Sure it has a lovely looking body and an attractive AMOLED screen, but there's an array of similar or better (Samsung's SuperAMOLED+ for example... and even in higher resolutions) than the N9 already available.

I don't mind you diverging on to hardware criticisms but let's get back to the original story, shall we, and that's sofwware

It's just too little, too late and there isn't even that ONE great advantage that Nokia COULD have taken advantage of: Open-source and community. Sadly, even the Android crowd has managed to do more with far less openness.

Um.... The point of Android was the fragmentation and for different hardware manufacturers to get on board.

You don't have to agree, just take a look around the XDA forums alone for some evidence of progress everywhere else.

True, my contention is that MeeGo was a distraction. By MeeGo I mean the Intel alliance and all the stuff that came with it. I think if they continued on the path of Maemo 6 and etc I think they could have accomplished something comparable (though not exactly the same) as Android. The difference though is that Maemo was never intended for other manufacturers.... so in the end going down the MeeGo path, there was nothing to show. Whereas if they stuck with Maemo, I think they might have had a chance to do something for the community.

I still hold out a glimmer of hope, yes, but I really don't think Nokia is interested in listening to us despite the successes of Google, Red Hat, Canonical and other far more open-source and community-friendly high-tech companies that have successfully competed against Microsoft and appears to be winning.

Umm... The 3 vendors you mentioned are software vendors. Nokia is a hardware vendor first, then incidentally software.

BTW, I enjoy the back and forth but unfortunately am about to get on an airplane so won't be able to respond.

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	danramos	2011-09-29 , 03:15
	Posts: 4,672 \| Thanked: 5,455 times \| Joined on Jul 2008 @ Springfield, MA, USA	#30

Originally Posted by geohsia

Umm... The 3 vendors you mentioned are software vendors. Nokia is a hardware vendor first, then incidentally software.

BTW, I enjoy the back and forth but unfortunately am about to get on an airplane so won't be able to respond.

As you reminded me yourself, we are talking about the software. That's why I mentioned software vendors--Nokia is a hardware vendor that was doing software. Perhaps they would have done best to listen to your very same advice and concentrate on the HARDWARE and make it as open-source friendly as possible so that the community (and other commercial entities--thus spurring a whole ecosystem around their hardware) would develop the software to run on these very portable devices. What a shame... Again.

Anyway--have a safe flight! Good talking with you!!

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