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2011-09-28
, 23:50
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#22
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Originally Posted by geohsia
I'm not sure that the community route was what killed it, really. In fact, I think the problem Nokia always had was that it distanced itself from the community as much as it could and did very little of the very things they kept enticing and bragging about out in the open (i.e. opening up code, listening to customers, support, etc.) but doing very little about behind their own closed doors, despite even some of the efforts of engineers on the inside to do or at least advocate much of the things Nokia should have done as policy.
Agreed. I think CSSU is all we have so in the end, the whole MeeGo thing really just a distraction.
Ultimately by going the community route they killed the very thing the community wanted. Ironic.
__________________
Nokia's slogan shouldn't be the pedo-palmgrabbing image with the slogan, "Connecting People"... It should be one hand open pleadingly with another hand giving the middle finger and the more apt slogan, "Potential Unrealized." --DR
Nokia's slogan shouldn't be the pedo-palmgrabbing image with the slogan, "Connecting People"... It should be one hand open pleadingly with another hand giving the middle finger and the more apt slogan, "Potential Unrealized." --DR
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2011-09-29
, 00:15
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#23
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How many hours worth of core business-centric code do these guys expect they get to buy away from Nokia's software libraries for $100?
*disbelief*
*disbelief*
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Qwerty is hot? Stylus or not? Let the buyer decide! The Nokia ¹ Smartphone - Build your ¹
Qwerty is hot? Stylus or not? Let the buyer decide! The Nokia ¹ Smartphone - Build your ¹
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2011-09-29
, 00:36
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#24
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Originally Posted by volt
I'm not sure they care. Whatever's missing they'll make up in their OWN (or community) software libraries. Nokia has effectively guaranteed their own irrelevance--doubly so by pairing with Microsoft.
How many hours worth of core business-centric code do these guys expect they get to buy away from Nokia's software libraries for $100?
*disbelief*
__________________
Nokia's slogan shouldn't be the pedo-palmgrabbing image with the slogan, "Connecting People"... It should be one hand open pleadingly with another hand giving the middle finger and the more apt slogan, "Potential Unrealized." --DR
Nokia's slogan shouldn't be the pedo-palmgrabbing image with the slogan, "Connecting People"... It should be one hand open pleadingly with another hand giving the middle finger and the more apt slogan, "Potential Unrealized." --DR
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2011-09-29
, 00:48
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#25
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Originally Posted by danramos
If Nokia wasn't interested in the community I don't think they would have gone with MeeGo.
I'm not sure that the community route was what killed it, really. In fact, I think the problem Nokia always had was that it distanced itself from the community as much as it could and did very little of the very things they kept enticing and bragging about out in the open (i.e. opening up code, listening to customers, support, etc.) but doing very little about behind their own closed doors, despite even some of the efforts of engineers on the inside to do or at least advocate much of the things Nokia should have done as policy.
Though I understand your criticism, I think Harmattan / N9 turned out pretty well from what I've seen and it certainly wasn't because they opened the code or did any of the things you think they should have done.
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2011-09-29
, 01:48
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#26
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Originally Posted by geohsia
Imagine how much better it could have been, had they developed code in cooperation with the community they portend to work with, instead of the confused mess they ended up with. I haven't used an N9 yet--I suspect you haven't either--but of what I've seen I wasn't impressed with. I think they could have made it far more flexible and capable than it is. The hardware has a few shining good features, but on the whole it's unimpressively closed too and will be difficult to repair. Oh well.
If Nokia wasn't interested in the community I don't think they would have gone with MeeGo.
Though I understand your criticism, I think Harmattan / N9 turned out pretty well from what I've seen and it certainly wasn't because they opened the code or did any of the things you think they should have done.
As i said... nothing better than what others are doing. Nokia really needed an ADVANTAGE. The N9 doesn't appear to be it and they've wasted all their opportunities.
__________________
Nokia's slogan shouldn't be the pedo-palmgrabbing image with the slogan, "Connecting People"... It should be one hand open pleadingly with another hand giving the middle finger and the more apt slogan, "Potential Unrealized." --DR
Nokia's slogan shouldn't be the pedo-palmgrabbing image with the slogan, "Connecting People"... It should be one hand open pleadingly with another hand giving the middle finger and the more apt slogan, "Potential Unrealized." --DR
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2011-09-29
, 02:04
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#27
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Originally Posted by danramos
To me Harmattan delivers what I thought Maemo 6 should have delivered.
Imagine how much better it could have been, had they developed code in cooperation with the community they portend to work with, instead of the confused mess they ended up with. I haven't used an N9 yet--I suspect you haven't either--
but of what I've seen I wasn't impressed with. I think they could have made it far more flexible and capable than it is.
The hardware has a few shining good features, but on the whole it's unimpressively closed too and will be difficult to repair. Oh well.
As i said... nothing better than what others are doing. Nokia really needed an ADVANTAGE. The N9 doesn't appear to be it and they've wasted all their opportunities.
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2011-09-29
, 02:37
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#28
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Originally Posted by geohsia
Well, when you put it in 'what *I* thought' terms, how can there be a debate about it?
To me Harmattan delivers what I thought Maemo 6 should have delivered.
Originally Posted by geohsia
It does not allow you to, once again, replace components of the system or interface without ruining said system/interface... just like Maemo. It does not actually do much of what I expect from Linux--flexibility of software--given the closed-down nature of the kernel (if you try to compile your own to support some features, you're left in a difficult situation for support of hardware components.. again). Harmattan also lacks the ability to run on other hardware--something that at least MeeGo does (or is trying to) do. The N9, as a handset, lacks a replaceable battery, it lacks any kind of expansion (SDHC or microSDHC), it's just--sadly--limited. Sure it has a lovely looking body and an attractive AMOLED screen, but there's an array of similar or better (Samsung's SuperAMOLED+ for example... and even in higher resolutions) than the N9 already available.
What does it not do?
It's just too little, too late and there isn't even that ONE great advantage that Nokia COULD have taken advantage of: Open-source and community. Sadly, even the Android crowd has managed to do more with far less openness.
Originally Posted by geohsia
You don't have to agree, just take a look around the XDA forums alone for some evidence of progress everywhere else.
I don't agree but we can agree to disagree.
Originally Posted by geohsia
I still hold out a glimmer of hope, yes, but I really don't think Nokia is interested in listening to us despite the successes of Google, Red Hat, Canonical and other far more open-source and community-friendly high-tech companies that have successfully competed against Microsoft and appears to be winning.
They certainly have an uphill battle and yes, they had their chance. I won't say it's over though. There is still a lot of game to be played.
__________________
Nokia's slogan shouldn't be the pedo-palmgrabbing image with the slogan, "Connecting People"... It should be one hand open pleadingly with another hand giving the middle finger and the more apt slogan, "Potential Unrealized." --DR
Nokia's slogan shouldn't be the pedo-palmgrabbing image with the slogan, "Connecting People"... It should be one hand open pleadingly with another hand giving the middle finger and the more apt slogan, "Potential Unrealized." --DR
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2011-09-29
, 03:06
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#29
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Originally Posted by danramos
;-)
Well, when you put it in 'what *I* thought' terms, how can there be a debate about it?
It does not allow you to, once again, replace components of the system or interface without ruining said system/interface... just like Maemo.
I agree though that Harmattan doesn't have it but I think Swipe is pretty sweet. Much nicer than any skin I've seen on Maemo. No disrespect to those who have made customizations to Maemo.
It does not actually do much of what I expect from Linux--flexibility of software--given the closed-down nature of the kernel (if you try to compile your own to support some features, you're left in a difficult situation for support of hardware components.. again).
Harmattan also lacks the ability to run on other hardware--something that at least MeeGo does (or is trying to) do.
The N9, as a handset, lacks a replaceable battery, it lacks any kind of expansion (SDHC or microSDHC), it's just--sadly--limited.
Sure it has a lovely looking body and an attractive AMOLED screen, but there's an array of similar or better (Samsung's SuperAMOLED+ for example... and even in higher resolutions) than the N9 already available.
It's just too little, too late and there isn't even that ONE great advantage that Nokia COULD have taken advantage of: Open-source and community. Sadly, even the Android crowd has managed to do more with far less openness.
You don't have to agree, just take a look around the XDA forums alone for some evidence of progress everywhere else.
I still hold out a glimmer of hope, yes, but I really don't think Nokia is interested in listening to us despite the successes of Google, Red Hat, Canonical and other far more open-source and community-friendly high-tech companies that have successfully competed against Microsoft and appears to be winning.
BTW, I enjoy the back and forth but unfortunately am about to get on an airplane so won't be able to respond.
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2011-09-29
, 03:15
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#30
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Originally Posted by geohsia
As you reminded me yourself, we are talking about the software. That's why I mentioned software vendors--Nokia is a hardware vendor that was doing software. Perhaps they would have done best to listen to your very same advice and concentrate on the HARDWARE and make it as open-source friendly as possible so that the community (and other commercial entities--thus spurring a whole ecosystem around their hardware) would develop the software to run on these very portable devices. What a shame... Again.
Umm... The 3 vendors you mentioned are software vendors. Nokia is a hardware vendor first, then incidentally software.
BTW, I enjoy the back and forth but unfortunately am about to get on an airplane so won't be able to respond.
Anyway--have a safe flight! Good talking with you!!
__________________
Nokia's slogan shouldn't be the pedo-palmgrabbing image with the slogan, "Connecting People"... It should be one hand open pleadingly with another hand giving the middle finger and the more apt slogan, "Potential Unrealized." --DR
Nokia's slogan shouldn't be the pedo-palmgrabbing image with the slogan, "Connecting People"... It should be one hand open pleadingly with another hand giving the middle finger and the more apt slogan, "Potential Unrealized." --DR
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Ultimately by going the community route they killed the very thing the community wanted. Ironic.