Nokia is certainly not apple, thank God for that or we would have a LOT more problems than we already have with the tablets :-).

Dunno what happened to apple, about 5 years ago now all my apple stuff went into the dumpster, as much as I liked apple at one time, I sure have not missed it :-). Got a lot more computing power for the same $$$ and all I had to do was to learn a bit .

Someone mentioned that the stuff for the n800 (etc) is debian derived, it is. Only problem is that the vast majority that stuff for debian is "x86" based and very little has been ported to the processor and other oddnesses (compared to "x86") of the n800 (etc.).

It's all a piece of crap folks, pick yours and plod bravely on :-) :-) :-)!

And you seem to not understand jokes, even when denoted with a smiley face

Among all these, only Linux fanboys approach (but not match) the Apple ones. They are kind of opposite to each other though.

The original poster did no appear to base his assertions on reality, so I do not see a point in changing the style.

This is very, very incorrect. In fact, the vast majority of Debian 'stuff for Debian' has been compiled for ARM under Debian's ARM EABI Port.

The easiest way to use it is to install johnx's Debian port on an SD partition, but I believe there has also been some success running the Debian stuff under a chroot (so the GNU utilities don't collide with the busybox stuff, which would result in an unbootable system).

And the tablets are still not the highest priority for nokia. Wheras iphone/touch is almost the no. 1 priority for apple. If nokia with a small maemo team can do this just imagine how much it can do when the internet tablets become main stream!!
Remember this is something nokia introduced in the market in 2005 and since 3 years no other company has got a product anywhere near to what the NIT's are. It is a new product and it will definitely take time to develop.
Wheras apple's iphone is nothing new(atleast outside america). It is just a phone with touch screen. And nokia has been producing cell phones since a long long while.

So what nokia is going through is just the same as it went through in the late 80's when the cellphones were developed(which apple is doing now!). Hell even the third party softwares have been there since a long long while..... so i dont really understand what is so great about 3rd party softwares when it is for the iphone.

Indeed, there is no sprint here it is a marathon. Nokia has sold 100's of millions of phones Apple has not even reached 10 million. It will be interesting to look back on this a year down the line not to mention 2 years down and see what shakes out.

Just because you add a smiley face to something doesn't make it funny!

I find myself agreeing with the OP's original intent (look past the noise and the ad hominem attacks.)

It's the reason I released the ports of CWiid and LyX here and not on garage; the garage sites are registered on maemo for the day I intend to park a sensible, simple to install debian (possibly with a usable hildon based GUI for the majority.)

My belief is, rightly or wrongly - that garage is the face of the IT community; it should be clean cut, shaven, nice to look at with a splash of Essay Miyaki to boot. It's what the journalists browse, it's what the iPod generation browse - what it shouldn't be is a bitbucket ... or (if the case is such that it is) we should have software appear in a separate bitbucket type tag that basically screams "This is NOT ready for you...go away unless you like headaches!" - ok we do have the alpha/beta status for that - but my opinion is that software that appears in tag-based searches should be confined to release status and release status only. All other software that needs at least a basic understanding of the commands "ls, cd, cp, etc" should be invisible to these users and accessable to "us" the hackers.

Release status simply means "click the install file and wait for the download, then select where you want to place the menu shortcut."

Release status simply means you can run the application with minimal thought on the underlying nature of the operating system and what its doing.

Release status requires vetting by the maemo ops who should look at all aspects of the application - in much the same way as (sorry I have to say it) Apple with their "pay us $99 and we'll CONSIDER your application." Applications that fail to make "the cut" should have sufficient feedback to the relevant parties as to why it didn't crop up.

Take Cwiid for example. Cwiid works and works well - but I shouldn't expect a user to insmod 2 kernel modules, lswm a bluetooth address, set the bluetooth address as an environment variable before running wminput to create the devices - all from the command line.

Then look at the other extreme - Canola - polished, exceptionally easy to install. Very little user input required to get the thing working on the IT. Once loaded - the presentation is immaculate. User interface is not only pleasing to look at, but has had a lot of attention given to interaction. Within minutes a user can setup internet radio streams, listen to mp3s, watch films, and so on.

There are three factors here - the application code itself; the user interface; and the packaging of the application code. If any of those is done badly, it reflects on the whole. This is where collaboration should take place. A lot of people who aren't developers are exceptional unix administrators - that is - they know a helluva lot about the Debian way of doing things and can take any makefile and spin it into a deb. On the other side of the fence - a lot of developers don't know much about the admin side of things or the art of user interfaces, but are great with code. And finally a lot of artists/user interface specialists don't know packaging or code but can design an interface like no other.

Ports simply haven't been designed with mobility in mind; and using such software tends to frustrate people. We're seeing a lot more of these ports crop up on the scene because it's fairly easy to compile under 2K8 and we have some great guys here who know the insides and outs of Linux and can deal with all the dependancy issues involved with ease. Maemo applications may well have been designed with maemo in mind, but a lot of them are designed by coders who don't necessarliy involve themselves too much with the OS side of things and don't necessarily know how users should interact with their applications - they look downright ugly sometimes.


Ports need devs to hildonize the apps administrators port, collaborate with a developer to get the code changes made; if the port has an exceptionally complicated UI then collaborate with a specialist in that area. Devs need administrators to package things up for the iPod generation and UI specialists to consider the people they're creating apps for, collaborate with the admins to get your software packaged nicely. And so on.


I also feel that a lot of us take on too many projects without completing past projects - or hope that someone picks up where we left off. [In this case, I think a lot of the porters are to blame - though don't get me wrong I'm not attacking the great work you guys do!]


Personally I'm setting myself up with a minimal number of projects to work on, so I can devote some time and effort to polishing them up and getting to the release state I describe above. For ports like the above it shouldn't matter so much - as long as they install and install easily; and that the GUI works! For maemo type apps it does matter - everything right down to the icon shortcuts we place on our application menus should be tweaked for OS200x. The only other (unreleased) project I have is a camera application with computer vision reconstruction/effects [and now that's going a different direction to what I intended.] A Rainlendar type desktop app that syncs with google calendar. And an investigation into a fast software 3D graphics library (with demonstrative demos). Three projects, two ports + little free time = possibility to finish the jobs started.


So yeah - anything that appears on garage should be functional, should look pretty and should ultimately work!



[As an aside - I think Maemomapper's great ]

the garage isnt browsed by anyone of that kind. the maemo download area on the other hand, with its neatly sorted stuff and one click installer arrows...

but their first brush will not be with maemo.org at all, but with http://www.nokia.com/os2008

it even sits there on the "desktop" of a fresh device, begging to be clicked...

First of all, I don't use Maemo Mapper, so I'm not going into a debate about the evaluation of the program (I don't use any GPS software; I like simple maps better), but it didn't take me more than a second to distill the OP's real problems from his "hyperbole" (which, if he used MM and got burned by it, is actually rather understandeable). You OTOH chose to focus on how he said it, rather than what he said; this is not very instrumental at getting a dialogue going. It's also a sign of the times, where people are beginning to think there exists such a right as "not to be offended" (especially if they are or claim to be muslim, but I digress). Your Thomas Jefferson would give them a right ding on the ear for that.

Secondly, you're not defending freeware developers, you're stating the fruits of their labour should be treated differently from commercial developers' software. That's condescending at best, and damaging to the freeware movement at worst. You're in fact saying freeware developers should be treated as the equivalent of the mentally handicapped: Their work may suck, but we musn't say anything harsh, lest they be discouraged of continuing to suck. I'm not treating Microsoft nicely for the crap they churn out, nor will I be nice for the legion of freeware media player "developers" that has apparently chosen the Itablet as their home turf, to name my own pet peeve against freeware developers. BOGDAMMIT! GO DO SOMETHING USEFUL, YOU SLACKERS! IN MY DAY, YOU'D ALL BE SENT TO THE GALLEYS!!

Then there's the matter of the actual price being an argument against criticism (apparently only allowed if it's gentle and kind criticism, given in the form of praise), an argument brought up by several others in the thread (I'm shoving my reply in here, because I'm too lazy to say the same thing to the others, but this is obviously not directed at you, as you didn't say in so many words that the (absense of) price determines the level of criticism): If people are going to judge software by what they paid for it, then these people aren't using that software, they're collecting it. You judge software by what it does and how it does it, and if it doesn't meet that criterium, it's bad software, regardless of what it cost you. In fact, bad freeware might turn out to cost more than good commercial software, if only in the amount of time wasted on forums complaining about bad freeware.

Oops! I forgot: "Hitler!" There, now even Godwin's Law is covered.


<gasp!> <gasp!> I'm off now, just resting for a spell...