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| The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to woody14619 For This Useful Post: | ||
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2012-01-16
, 19:04
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Posts: 2,291 |
Thanked: 4,135 times |
Joined on Apr 2010
@ UK
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#122
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Originally Posted by woody14619
I agree, thank you Copernicus. Also bear in mind that there are some differences between Stable and Testing CSSU's.
A huge thank you for this. I'll add what I can as I see things. If you have an area that needs a picture, leave a tag for it and someone will fill it in! Image snaps are quite easy to do (though I do understand you can't for some because you may not have things installed).
Example, I don't have the extra Send in Modest (Stable Flavor 21.2011.38-1maemo2.1).
I'm guessing it's not in the stable CSSU yet?
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2012-01-16
, 19:05
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Posts: 1,455 |
Thanked: 3,309 times |
Joined on Dec 2009
@ Rochester, NY
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#123
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Originally Posted by kudlatygosc
Uhm... I run KP49 and Irreco works just fine for me. I also run CSSU, so maybe that's part of it? As for CSSU, KP is a much larger risk than CSSU in may ways. Kernel changes are far more likely to cause crashes than user-space changes.
I also installed new kernel and then noticed I irreco does no longer work with no solution. This tought me little more thinking before clicking install for everything new from testing repo.Usually upgrades of applications are not worth upgrade because added value is low and risk of breaking something might be high. And I believe CSSU is "big" thing (I see it as major patch to SSU), so big risk.
As for the risk being worth it, that's something you need to make the choice on for yourself. But the stability fixes in CSSU are pretty significant, and if there were major risk, you'd be seeing a lot more activity on the install thread than currently is there for the number of people that have installed it. (Especially the "stable" branch.)
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2012-01-16
, 19:05
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Posts: 347 |
Thanked: 441 times |
Joined on Dec 2010
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#124
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Originally Posted by Estel
I am with you here. Unfortunately most people (are trained to) think that big corporations/ businesses are more dependable/ trustable then a bunch of "little" people, unless proven otherwise.
It's amusing to see how people *think* Nokians left device stable. Less-involved people just don't realize, how many instability/leaks/errors Nokians left - CSSU is actually addressing most of them.
Totally no offense - I also don't use other device as phone. i understand your motivation, and I'm not laughing at it. I'm just pointing out, that it's based on wrong assumption - PR1.3(1) isn't bug free nor "stable", when compared to CSSU. Installing CSSU is actually making device *more* stable.
Of course, I'm also not trying to convince anyone into installing anything, if she/he doesn't feel it fancy.
/Estel
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Motorola M3688 → Ericsson R320 → Siemens S40 → Motorola V60c → Palm Treo 650 → Blackberry 9000 → Nokia N900 → HP Pre 3 → Nokia N900 → Nokia N9 → Nokia N900 → Nokia 808 → Blackberry Z10 → Blackberry Passport
Only dead fish swim with the stream.
Motorola M3688 → Ericsson R320 → Siemens S40 → Motorola V60c → Palm Treo 650 → Blackberry 9000 → Nokia N900 → HP Pre 3 → Nokia N900 → Nokia N9 → Nokia N900 → Nokia 808 → Blackberry Z10 → Blackberry Passport
Only dead fish swim with the stream.
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2012-01-16
, 19:09
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Posts: 2,076 |
Thanked: 3,268 times |
Joined on Feb 2011
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#125
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Originally Posted by woody14619
KP can be uninstalled, as good as BackupMenu (kudos to the author) is I did once get my device in non-bootable state when restoring very old backup, so risk is there.
Funny that you don't trust CSSU, but do trust three other people (Leto, Titan, and Pali), only one of which is still active here, with changing your kernel. I'll note that in CSSU you have people testing things submitted, in a separate release, before it ever makes it to a stable branch. KP has some internal testing on it's thread, but often changes go out that are not the most stable things in the world. (This coming from someone following that and participating in it.)
Originally Posted by woody14619
Here is a quote from merlin's CSSU stable announcement thread:
The truth is that there are lots of bugs in the official software, one look at the bug tracker will confirm that. Search for WONTFIX and lots of them are real and vital bugs, many now fixed in KP and CSSU. Maemo/Nokia did a good job in providing a relatively stable base (esp compared to things like OpenMoko), but it's not perfect, nor is CSSU. But realistically, there will not be a PR1.4, ever. The only path for bug fixes these days are to roll your own or move up to CSSU.
So what is the "stable" cssu?
The stable cssu is meant for all those people who didn't want to install the cssu because it happened to break stuff from time to time.
We're trying to achieve an as close to stock maemo experience as possible in terms of stability.
It was mentioned many times here how people were angry at Nokia breaking things with 1.3, including a fix that results in the same, with only ssh+screen+vim/less scenario fixed is not worth it for me to keep on-topic (especially that editing rc files is an optional solution, check the bug's thread). So you might repeat magical bugfixes that are great, this one example is of a not so great decision. Also hildon stability/leak is fixed by KP alone it seems. Freemangordon mentioned a killer feature that might end up in CSSU, I will have to reevaluate +'s and -'s at that point (maybe reverting libvte will still be possible to keep backwards compatibility, if so I will definitely move to it)
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2012-01-16
, 19:20
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Posts: 412 |
Thanked: 480 times |
Joined on Feb 2011
@ Bronx, NY
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#126
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Originally Posted by sixwheeledbeast
I agree, thank you Copernicus. Also bear in mind that there are some differences between Stable and Testing CSSU's.
Example, I don't have the extra Send in Modest (Stable Flavor 21.2011.38-1maemo2.1).
I'm guessing it's not in the stable CSSU yet?
Could you double chk please it doesn't appear until there is enough text in the message body push the top send button off the screen.
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2012-01-16
, 19:31
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Posts: 1,986 |
Thanked: 7,698 times |
Joined on Dec 2010
@ Dayton, Ohio
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#127
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Originally Posted by sixwheeledbeast
Aha, thank you! (Yes, I admit I hadn't even thought about forking the change pages into Stable and Testing versions. I'll get on that. Be prepared to point out other mistakes, I'm sure to make plenty...)
Also bear in mind that there are some differences between Stable and Testing CSSU's.
Example, I don't have the extra Send in Modest (Stable Flavor 21.2011.38-1maemo2.1).
I'm guessing it's not in the stable CSSU yet?
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2012-01-16
, 19:57
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Posts: 1,455 |
Thanked: 3,309 times |
Joined on Dec 2009
@ Rochester, NY
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#128
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Originally Posted by szopin
The point is, you can backup your system and try CSSU without fear by taking a snapshot, then installing and trying it. Yes, installing a PR1.2 snapshot after updating your kernel will cause issues, because it can't find the modules it wants on the device. That has more to do with updating the kernel than BackupMenu, and shows that while KP can be uninstalled, it can cause issues on uninstall (including breaking things) if you don't use it's uninstall app. You can also brick your device by uninstalling KP with HAM or apt-get, requiring a kernel re-flash from a PC to make it right again.
KP can be uninstalled, as good as BackupMenu (kudos to the author) is I did once get my device in non-bootable state when restoring very old backup, so risk is there.
Originally Posted by szopin
Yes... It's almost identical language to most things that have a stable and testing branch. What's in stable has been tested and is working well, where what's in testing may in fact break things from time to time. It's the same warning on extras-devel and extras-testing vs extras. (You know, extras-devel/testing, where you got KP from...)
Here is a quote from merlin's CSSU stable announcement thread:
The point of the OP in creating this thread was asking why some people were still not using CSSU now that there's a stable release. It was a given when there was only a testing release, since it could in fact break things on occasion. Do you not understand that?
Originally Posted by szopin
What are you talking about? "including a fix that results in the same"? I can't parse what you're trying to say here. What bug are you referring to?
It was mentioned many times here how people were angry at Nokia breaking things with 1.3, including a fix that results in the same, with only ssh+screen+vim/less scenario fixed is not worth it for me to keep on-topic (especially that editing rc files is an optional solution, check the bug's thread). So you might repeat magical bugfixes that are great, this one example is of a not so great decision.
As for "magical bugfixes", there's nothing "magical" about them. There are several, documented along with check-ins and code. Things are far more stable IMHO than under PR1.3. And I'm not alone in that assertion.
Originally Posted by szopin
Really? To quote others, where is that at? Can you show me a post or a patch that show that? While possible, I somehow doubt that a kernel patch fixed a leak in a user-world program like hildon-desktop. Far more likely it was a library or a direct change to hildon itself (via CSSU or one of the pre-CSSU releases of changes made by MAG).
Also hildon stability/leak is fixed by KP alone it seems.
I still don't get why you trust the community to change your kernel, but not some user/system apps. It would seem there's far more risk in accepting kernel patches (which are not labeled as stable). It's like trusting your neighbor to change your engine out, but not paint your car. Sounds a little backwards.
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2012-01-16
, 20:13
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Posts: 2,076 |
Thanked: 3,268 times |
Joined on Feb 2011
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#129
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Originally Posted by woody14619
No, I had the bug when restoring 1.3 backup. Never happened on uninstalling KP.
The point is, you can backup your system and try CSSU without fear by taking a snapshot, then installing and trying it. Yes, installing a PR1.2 snapshot after updating your kernel will cause issues, because it can't find the modules it wants on the device. That has more to do with updating the kernel than BackupMenu, and shows that while KP can be uninstalled, it can cause issues on uninstall (including breaking things) if you don't use it's uninstall app. You can also brick your device by uninstalling KP with HAM or apt-get, requiring a kernel re-flash from a PC to make it right again.
Originally Posted by woody14619
Part I was referring to was trying to reach as stable as stock gets. To all your stock=unstable, even CSSU devs acknowledge stability as main feature to go after, not bugfixes.
Yes... It's almost identical language to most things that have a stable and testing branch. What's in stable has been tested and is working well, where what's in testing may in fact break things from time to time. It's the same warning on extras-devel and extras-testing vs extras. (You know, extras-devel/testing, where you got KP from...)
Originally Posted by woody14619
Incompatibility. Remapping keys leads to that. Nokia could fix it on Diablo but the dice were already tossed, expecting devs to include kbd fix was the way to go for some years (just google n900 kp_enter), now suddenly change. Nokia wouldn't. Yet it is the devil for doing similar in 1.3 rollout.
What are you talking about? "including a fix that results in the same"? I can't parse what you're trying to say here. What bug are you referring to?
Originally Posted by woody14619
Magical as in: too many to list, yet Copernicus had hard time getting any answer except: so many man you have to jump ship
As for "magical bugfixes", there's nothing "magical" about them. There are several, documented along with check-ins and code. Things are far more stable IMHO than under PR1.3. And I'm not alone in that assertion.
Originally Posted by woody14619
+7 days uptime stability was said to be 'very very rare', yet it isn't. Many people get month of uptime with no instability using only KP, so you claiming it is CSSU is either lack of comparison or listing KP as CSSU feature, disingenous at best
Really? To quote others, where is that at? Can you show me a post or a patch that show that? While possible, I somehow doubt that a kernel patch fixed a leak in a user-world program like hildon-desktop. Far more likely it was a library or a direct change to hildon itself (via CSSU or one of the pre-CSSU releases of changes made by MAG).
I still don't get why you trust the community to change your kernel, but not some user/system apps. It would seem there's far more risk in accepting kernel patches (which are not labeled as stable). It's like trusting your neighbor to change your engine out, but not paint your car. Sounds a little backwards.
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2012-01-16
, 22:01
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Posts: 5,028 |
Thanked: 8,613 times |
Joined on Mar 2011
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#130
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...which still doesn't explain why you trust unstable kernel release (with exactly same approach to fixes - if You want detailed answer, check source code patches), but You don't trust CSSU.
Seem more like "ideological" than meritocratic, to me.
/Estel
Seem more like "ideological" than meritocratic, to me.
/Estel
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N900's aluminum backcover / body replacement
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N900's HDMI-Out
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Camera cover MOD
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Measure battery's real capacity on-device
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TrueCrypt 7.1 | ereswap | bnf
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Hardware's mods research is costly. To support my work, please consider donating. Thank You!
| The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Estel For This Useful Post: | ||
The change that breaks that one app was breaking lots of other behavior for other apps. Texting and web browsing (two of the major uses for virtual keyboard) were totally hosed because of this default behavior. Yes, ideally one would code in a switch for the behavior, maybe even put it in gconf as to the default behavior (maybe even per-app?). Which is where it looks like things are headed.
You remind me a lot of a one-topic voter in the states. They focus so much on one topic that they're willing to vote in someone completely against their own interests in every category except that one narrow little thing. It's doubly dumbfounding when you know there's a clean solution (downgrading one lib) to getting back the old behavior.