I know the steps. I have taken some of them
- N800,N900

What we are not going to agree on, is what consumer friendly means. You say an ecosystem is required to make that happen. I respectfully disagree.
I am not a market expert, can't tell if am right on this, but I think a phone with good basic applications can survive without the almighty ecosystem.
Just give that phone half of a chance please, don't announce something similar with windows on it two days later.
So now will never know if an ecosystem is required for a powerfull phone. This baby was born to be killed.

Glad you know them... next time you shouldn't ask questions you already know the answer to.

Again, wrong. I personally don't care for what they sell as an ecosystem. Think about it this way... I'm here at TMO, formerly ITT. I've been here for almost 4 years and 3 devices that had no real ecosystem. I got my own content.

I personally do not need that. Nor do I want it. Give me VLC for my videos, something to play my music on... and I'm golden.

But for a "consumer friendly" phone - now I have to think outside of my own needs, my own abilities, my own wants and my own workflow... I suggest you do the same for just one moment - then you'll see how an "ecosystem" all of a sudden is important because the average consumer doesn't know a *.mkv file from a *.csv file.

We here at TMO do.

In 2007, yes. In 2011, no.

Totally agree there. It was way too calculated timing-wise to be an accident. I haven't seen an undercut like that in ages. Harmattan basically got screwed.

Quality apps on iOS ? Or are you saying nice looking apps ? Quality apps for what ? Where are iOS apps like LaTeX (with compiling), Maxima/wxMaxima (complete Computer Algebra System with nice user interface), Python, (Easy) Debian, etc ? I use them, I need them.

Sorry, I prefer Maemo 5 OS (N900) with powerfull software like found in desktop computers than 100-200 thousand "apps" for iOS and Android OS. iOS are Andriod OS are in my opinion, dumbled down OS, with OS limitations incompatible with great hardware nowadays (Tegra 2, 3, etc).

Linux (Maemo, MeeGo, etc) forever !

Well I don't know what a csv file is (comma seperated ? electronic sheet ?) but when you double click it on your desktop your distro should know. And if your phone is as complete as a 100Mb livecd then you don't need an ecosystem in this case.
That is why I asked you before what ecosystem does your desktop have, because desktop computers don't need ecosystem.
Can you present an example where an ecosystem is required on a phone - a phone that can handle anything my 800Mhz PIII 392Mb ram desktop can handle ?

Then there is a huge gap between what kind of user I am and what kind of user you are.

I'm an application (web, mobile, desktop) developer first and foremost. I've gone from: C, C++, Visual C, Visual Basic, Visual Basic .NET, C#, AS3 (Adobe Flex), Adobe AIR, and currently using Application Inventor (Android) and using Adobe Flash Builder 4.51 for iOS, Android and BlackBerry PlayBook. I develop things, thus my need professionally and personally are different than a person that needs to just view, peruse, edit and partake of content on the Internet.

If you fail to see that, then I have nothing else to state about that honestly. We're different users and a LiveCD will only get me so far. It's served you well, it seems. Congrats.

So with that alone, I need a lot more than your 100mb LiveCD. Your LiveCD only gives you the ability to peruse what others make. You can compile some C (I think GCC Compiler is standard on those LiveCD's) but you'd have to install everything I just mentioned in one way or another.

Netflix is an example. Sure, you could "find" videos out there - and they are out there - or you could purchase from a store, rip it to something usable for mobile devices using Handbrake and call it a day. Zune/Comes With Music/iTunes/Napster (last iteration, not the first version) all require an "ecosystem" of sorts to accept payment for online purchased videos and music.

Don't get your music or videos from those locations? Good for you. You still have to go to a store... or "find" it.

Last I checked, comparing a desktop to a mobile was never my intention. In fact, I find it too full of folly to continue down that path.

Now, here's a slight pet peeve of mine. I totally dislike answering more questions than I get answered. So let's start out with something simple.

What's your point? Where do you get your music/videos/software? Do you just peruse the Internet or do you actually partake of anything that's out there? Did you use Ovi? Have you used any content delivery system that was not a RSS Reader? Have you ever purchased anything online via an App Store?

You see... with that, I'd know better to whom I'm addressing anything. And to continue to bring up something about your love for LiveCD's, well it's not a path that honestly I'll continue down because I don't do LiveCD's. I keep one around (Knoppix) in case one of my idiotic friends gets a virus or locks themself out (I do also use ERD Commander).

I've purchased music online in all of the aforementioned music content delivery systems. That's an ecosystem. I also have 900 CD's that I've purchased over the years. That's not an ecosystem. I develop software. I've had to publish that software via Android Market, Amazon's Android Market, iOS iTunes Store and BlackBerry's App Market... and learning how to publish to Intel's AppUp Market. Guess what... those things are all ecosystems.

And if you have an N900 or prior, the repositories are basically an ecosystem that supports the developers that populate them with the apps you like on that platform. And if you install anything from online sources... that's either an ecosystem (app store) or framework (yum, apt-get, rpm) that allows for ease of installation that supports the customer.

In fact, it's gotten to the point of where the (oft used incorrectly term) ecosystem means a delivery method of content to the user. That includes applications - you have installed something, right? - that do not come from CD's/DVD's/thumb drives/Cyber Jesus. And it definitely includes anything else I've mentioned above.

So... yeah. Not seeing your point. Answer the above or continue spouting out how you love your LiveCD. I'm sure somebody else will enjoy those stories. But to not understand from any other perspective what an ecosystem is and might be by definition to a consumer is either ignorance or goading. I'm not sure, so I'm stopping here.

I also list wasting my time as a pet peeve.

Bis dann...

I wouldn't call developer programs, quality programs. Not for the consumer - that qualifier is necessary.

To this developer, the lack of commandline *.swf creation tools annoys the ever-living **** out of me on Maemo. I even had started to hack up my N900 (then) to get it to work.

Same for Mono. I sometimes need C#. Not having both of those means that from my perspective, there's a lack of "quality" apps on Maemo.

It's all a matter of perspective and what suits you definitely doesn't suit me, vice versa.

The moment people stop thinking in terms of just themselves and start thinking about the bigger picture, we might see that's why the N900 didn't sell as much as the Samsung Galaxy S, Apple iPhone or other mainstream phones.

And that's probably why the N900 didn't get vendor support, nor support from Komodo (LORD I'd kill for a proper IDE on Maemo) or Adobe (gimme commandline Flex dammit) or Mono (it ain't there, I've checked) or Java (it wasn't officially there, but some seriously smart folks got it there)... among many others. Hell, I'd kill for a GIT/Capistrano (Ruby) implementation on Maemo.

Like this?

Since the first 5 steps were before Elop, those count the most.

gerbick@
So ecosystem for a desktop would be repositories, netflix, media...fine, you need all this, many others do, I'll accept your view on that.

I never used ovi or iphone or anroid or netflix and haven't bought a cd/dvd in the past two decades.
Why pay for content when so much of it is free.
Do people actually buy a dvd on their phone, by their phone, for their phone with liberty and justice ? Boy, they sure do mean unlimited in those data plans !
I download stuff and view it on my N900 with no ecosystem whatsoever. I have installed apps so I guess I do use the ecosystem, since by your definition a repository is an ecosystem.
Enough about me, I am no example.
My Desktop example, though true, is a bit extreem - to make a point - you don't need 20,000 apps, just a few good, complete applications.

You gave plenty of examples of why you as a developer to several platforms need an ecosystem. What you didn't do is give an example where a common user with a good-as-an-old-desktop phone would require services and tens of thousands of apps.

wtf is an ecosystem.

is it a lock-in system? no, it doesn't have to be.

is it a single repository/appstore environment? no, it doesn't have to be.

is it evil? no, it doesn't have to be.

is commercial application bad? no, it doesn't have to be.

are farts apps silly? yes, of course.



copy what's good from the competitors, don't let what you don't like about them cloud your judgement of the concept and gets left behind when everyone else can see it.