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2011-08-20
, 14:18
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Posts: 2,355 |
Thanked: 5,249 times |
Joined on Jan 2009
@ Barcelona
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#152
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Originally Posted by lma
That's a much more interesting point about Meego's openness that anything else made on this thread.
But! - it's actively hostile to GPLv3 and friends, to the point of forking old obsolete versions of several components, contradicting both its own compliance spec and "upstream first" policy in the process.
Last edited by javispedro; 2011-08-20 at 15:29.
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2011-08-30
, 18:06
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Posts: 1,455 |
Thanked: 3,309 times |
Joined on Dec 2009
@ Rochester, NY
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#153
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Originally Posted by javispedro
The feeling is mutual... Especially when one comes late to the topic (replying months after the discussion is over), and clearly hasn't read the abundance of examples given.
Sorry, but that's plain stupid.
Originally Posted by javispedro
So tell me... If say, 5% of MeeGo is closed, and "40%" of Maemo is closed... If just one thing in that blob for MeeGo sees a major update in Meego 2.0, but a new blob isn't released for N900 CE, doesn't that mean you can't update? At the very least it means you'd have to backport the old interface into the new system, which even if you could, would break lots of things and probably make that port/platform an outcast. How is that "so much better"? Claiming one thing is vastly "better" because it's "more open" is a farce.
NOONE is getting #2 opened in the near future).
If you're comparing something 5% open vs something 5% closed, there may be a tangible difference. But MeeGo, for all it's community governance (see how long that lasted?) is still quite closed, in almost identical ways to Maemo. I'd wager if you tally the numbers, the difference between the two is under 10% when it comes to how much is closed, which makes arguing that point effectively moot.
Originally Posted by javispedro
I have a solid resume in micro systems design, close to 20 years of experience in the field, and am first signer on several patents through Xerox. I've worked in open and closed source systems in the past, and have extensive reverse engineering skills. So yeah, I totally lack experience. And I've clearly never ported anything.
If you really believe this important difference in openness level is moot then I'm sorry but I think you'll have a hard time forward porting _anything_, because it clearly shows your lack of experience.
But hey, think what you want to. If it helps you sleep better at night to have that "extra 5% openness" in MeeGo, you go for it. To me, the point is moot. Just as moot as caring about your thoughts about me, or your baseless aspersions to my character and credentials.
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2011-08-30
, 18:33
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Posts: 3,074 |
Thanked: 12,964 times |
Joined on Mar 2010
@ Sofia,Bulgaria
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#154
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[offtopic]
@woody14619 - I think you and estel are a must for the next council. Pure engineering, like it.
[/offtopic]
@woody14619 - I think you and estel are a must for the next council. Pure engineering, like it.
[/offtopic]
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2011-08-30
, 18:40
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Posts: 738 |
Thanked: 983 times |
Joined on Apr 2010
@ London
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#155
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Originally Posted by woody14619
Supported development.
And what exactly is it that you have in MeeGo N900 CE that we don't have in Maemo?
It is obvious that Maemo is today in a better shape than MeegoCE.
It at least seems obvious to me that development on the Meego platform is more active than on the Maemo one.
If I understood you correctly, you assume that Meego shouldn't be considered because "it is right now less functional than Maemo" or at least because "Nokia will stop support, or community support will be blocked due to closed bits, before MeegoCE reaches / brings a viable alternative to Maemo functionality"
This last one is definitely possible, but far from certain, which make the position "I would still like to see, just in case" highly defendable (yet not absolute).
As for the closed source bits, isn't there a strict inclusion of what is closed in MeegoCE in what is closed in Maemo?
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2011-08-30
, 18:40
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Posts: 1,455 |
Thanked: 3,309 times |
Joined on Dec 2009
@ Rochester, NY
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#156
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Originally Posted by freemangordon
While I'd love to... I really lack the time for it right now. I'd have to drop at least two other projects, one of which is a local non-profit that I really care about and want to see stay afloat. Until that's stable enough to not wobble every time I take a vacation, that's taking priority. I love having my gadget, but in the measure of things, it's not as important as a service that makes life changes for dozens of kids a year.
[offtopic]
@woody14619 - I think you and estel are a must for the next council. Pure engineering, like it.
[/offtopic]
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2011-08-30
, 18:41
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Posts: 2,355 |
Thanked: 5,249 times |
Joined on Jan 2009
@ Barcelona
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#157
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Originally Posted by woody14619
So, if you're going to do the backporting thing, don't you think it's more easy if it's 5% closed than 40%? Don't? Seriously? Seriously?
So tell me... If say, 5% of MeeGo is closed, and "40%" of Maemo is closed... If just one thing in that blob for MeeGo sees a major update in Meego 2.0, but a new blob isn't released for N900 CE, doesn't that mean you can't update? At the very least it means you'd have to backport the old interface into the new system, which even if you could, would break lots of things and probably make that port/platform an outcast. How is that "so much better"? Claiming one thing is vastly "better" because it's "more open" is a farce.
Look. I've run WebOS on the N900. A operating system that is more closed than Maemo. I studied the components that were open to understand what those that were closed did. And I've thanked god for every single component where they decided to reuse existing opensource code instead of reinventing the wheel.
You saying that "the more open components the better" isn't true as long as there's one single component that is closed just feels plain insulting to me. And probably insulting to all the people that have fight harder than you have for what has been opened. Or those who have reimplemented the parts that itched them most.
Originally Posted by woody14619
You mean Meego on the N900 I guess. Last time I saw Meego was still 100% open (and Intel even gets to release somewhat working graphics driver for free, something we have not yet seen from Nokia).
If you're comparing something 5% open vs something 5% closed, there may be a tangible difference. But MeeGo, for all it's community governance (see how long that lasted?) is still quite closed, in almost identical ways to Maemo.
Originally Posted by woody14619
No, sorry. I can at least boot Meego on the N900 with only open components. I cannot do that with Maemo. I can probably consider replacing all what is closed in Meego within a lifetime. I cannot do that with Maemo.
I'd wager if you tally the numbers, the difference between the two is under 10% when it comes to how much is closed, which makes arguing that point effectively moot.
Both are in a different league. You are calling the point moot way too early.
Originally Posted by woody14619
Sorry, but I keep my "baseless" accusation even more after reading your last post. You don't even know what the closed components in Meego for the N900 are.
I have a solid resume in micro systems design, close to 20 years of experience in the field, and am first signer on several patents through Xerox. I've worked in open and closed source systems in the past, and have extensive reverse engineering skills. So yeah, I totally lack experience. And I've clearly never ported anything.
Originally Posted by woody14619
*Sigh*. Well, go on with your opinion then. I do not want you to change it. I just want to avoid people quoting your post like it was the last truth ever spoken.
But hey, think what you want to. If it helps you sleep better at night to have that "extra 5% openness" in MeeGo, you go for it. To me, the point is moot. Just as moot as caring about your thoughts about me, or your baseless aspersions to my character and credentials.
And please note that yes, an extra 5% of openess makes me and a lot of people sleep better. Means shorter night hacking sessions, thus longer sleep times. So you are right in this regard.
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2011-08-30
, 18:49
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Posts: 1,455 |
Thanked: 3,309 times |
Joined on Dec 2009
@ Rochester, NY
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#158
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Originally Posted by erendorn
Yes and no. Activity on both is about the same last I looked. But then we've had a few major losses lately due to totally unrelated things. (Like university starting up again, and a couple of key players being students and/or teachers.) Lots of projects see summer activity, in part because folks in education, on either side of the desk, have summers off.
Supported development.
Originally Posted by erendorn
Which is really the position I took through most of this. I wish the project well. I just would hope that it's survival doesn't mandate Maemo going away (which some would seem to be advocating for).
This last one is definitely possible, but far from certain, which make the position "I would still like to see, just in case" highly defendable (yet not absolute).
Originally Posted by erendorn
Not entirely, but there's a very high correlation, yes.
As for the closed source bits, isn't there a strict inclusion of what is closed in MeegoCE in what is closed in Maemo?
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2011-08-30
, 19:10
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Posts: 2,355 |
Thanked: 5,249 times |
Joined on Jan 2009
@ Barcelona
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#159
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Originally Posted by erendorn
Yes.
As for the closed source bits, isn't there a strict inclusion of what is closed in MeegoCE in what is closed in Maemo?
However, Meego is using more recent versions of the binary blobs. Therefore it is not a a literal "strict inclusion"; you cannot get the ones from Maemo. But they're just new versions of those you can get from Maemo.
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| Tags |
| context, debate, developers, frappadecaf, infraction pts, javis vs. woody, let's troll!, meego, relevance |
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All times are GMT. The time now is 09:04.
It is one thing to have bme, the GL driver and some pulseaudio GSM components closed (a rather interested hacker could probably get #1 and #3 reimplemented in a week, and NOONE is getting #2 opened in the near future).
It is an entire different thing to have 40% of the system closed.
If you really believe this important difference in openness level is moot then I'm sorry but I think you'll have a hard time forward porting _anything_, because it clearly shows your lack of experience.