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juiceme is offline juiceme
2013-05-13 , 07:49
Community Council | Posts: 4,920 | Thanked: 12,867 times | Joined on May 2012 @ Southerrn Finland
#2841
Originally Posted by juiceme View Post
Most Android devices can be opened AFAIK but there is no single supported way to do it, the process of rooting a device is more a hack in practice. This is why I consider Android a crippled platform.

Originally Posted by gerbick View Post
That's not open, as in open source. That's open, as in open for use. And the fact that you have to unlock, root and possibly flash a custom ROM is not what people mean by open source.
Well this is what I said; android base SW itself might be open source but you cannot use it as an open source platform without first breaking it. That's not open on by my definitions.
Now I realise this is because the companies using Android on their devices want to make it really hard for people to customize the device for their needs. What I'd like to see is open source device drivers for all HW of the device, for starters.

Originally Posted by gerbick View Post
I agree with Android being a "crippled" platform in the sense of open source. But that has absolutely nothing to do with the OS, licensing, et al. And again; for a crippled platform, a lot more was done on it than the more open offerings.
I'm sorry I lost you there, what sorts of things do you mean?

Originally Posted by juiceme View Post
And even when rooted, it's not your standard linux distribution, where you are used to get just about anything in there by installing a deb or a rpm package...

Originally Posted by gerbick View Post
And what exactly is a standard Linux distro for a mobile phone that's getting active support that you can buy today that actually is worth a damn. Please list them out.
There isn't one, AFAIK. I'd like that to change, and I'd like to see for example the Jolla device to be something like that.

Originally Posted by gerbick View Post
Can't say the same for Maemo unfortunately. The support that this forum gives it is incredible - same for MeeGo - but it's not vendor or widespread support. So I can't count on it.
Maemo/Harmattan was killed by Nokia because of bad political decisions. For that reason there's obviously no continuation, when the existing devices wear out, they cannot be replaced by anything. What I'd like to belive is that if the open source trend on nokia had continued then the company would have done better financially too.

Originally Posted by juiceme View Post
As for Blackberry, that device is not linux, it's irrelevant to me.

Originally Posted by gerbick View Post
Why switch the subject? In no comment above was Linux mentioned until now. And now it's important? I'll play along...
Actually it was you that brought up the subject of Blackberry, I just stated it's irrelevant for me.
You said; "I'm personally impressed that I can use C++, Java, Adobe AIR, HTML5/jQuery and with a myriad of tools. Same for Android to be honest. Same for BlackBerry10 as well."

I am sorry I feel that way, but it's true, I have no experience on QNX, I have never looked into the sources nor built QNX kernel for any device, it is irrelevant to me.

Originally Posted by gerbick View Post
QNX microkernel is POSIX based. That's more than enough for me. And it has current support and it's shown to be more extensible than most mobile Linux based offerings to date. Tizen, Sailfish will invariably change this statement though. MeeGo, Maemo... they're dead.
Partly true. There is no continuation with Maemo or Harmattan, but Mer is still relevant, Sailfish is cousin to Maemo&Harmattan via the MeeGo inheritance.

Originally Posted by juiceme View Post
Nah, you're just wrong. Fluid user interface is nice to look at and operate, but that's just surface.

Originally Posted by gerbick View Post
I'm wrong how? Your statements assume that you, the non-UI loving community actually amount up to people that want to type a command in order to make a phone call. Ain't nobody got time for that!
I did not say that console UI is the only thing needed, what I said is that it is just surface. I said it's not relevant that it's fluid and candy beautiful. I realise that lots of people think that, that there are lots of people trying to tune the existing interfaces more "fluid and nice", all kinds of "Project Butters" to make graphical UI "smooth" whatever that means
Of course you need a phone UI to call somebody, of course you need an email frontend to send your mail, I am not expecting you to type SMTP commands at a telnet prompt to do that

What I am after here, is that it should be possible to get to the device internal workings easily, that is should be possible to easily replace and change any of those functionlaities at will. And belive or not, the easiest way is to have full unix-like command line with all the thousands of tools written for unix for the last four decades.
If there exists a better alternative I would like to know about it!

Originally Posted by gerbick View Post
You are a minority. One that's never been catered to because nothing will make you happy. Ever. And you're such a small niche that you can't really state that you've been happy with any Linux Mobile to date that's still in production. If I'm wrong, feel free to correct me - and I'll state it here, I could be VERY WRONG.
Well you have it right on the first assumption, about being minority. But the second assumption is wrong, actually I am very happy with my N9, I am only unhappy about the way Nokia has taken regarding it.

Originally Posted by gerbick View Post
But as it stands, Harmattan was a great UI. And I had access to a real terminal.
I agree with you here. And to get back on the original topic of this thread, I do belive I will be as happy with my new Jolla device later.

Originally Posted by gerbick View Post
That's important to you and a very select few. Again, I can't stress upon to you that you are a very minor market. Linux Desktop is minor market - 1.21%. Linux mobile is even smaller (barring Android making the cut, which is doesn't). And you're talking about DBUS and commands... on a mobile device that makes phone calls? That an even smaller market that wants that - or even knows why they would want that.
I might be so hick in the woods I cannot see the real world, but where I live and work Linux Desktop is the norm. Yes there are also people who have Macs and WinXP/Win7 here but fortunately we can choose what to use, and people do choose the systems based on their needs.

Originally Posted by juiceme View Post
Maemo and Harmattan are far from fully open but they do get few things right; easy access to real command line, SW installation with real package management, ability to build and run your own kernel, documented interfaces to many internal interfaces.

As far as I have gathered information on Sailfish, opennes there is at least par with Maemo/Harmattan, propably more so. Even as I live and breathe Debian, I am ready to go RPM way if that's the price I need to pay.

Originally Posted by gerbick View Post
They did so much right. But they're both so very dead. Unfortunately it seems like marketing, poor distribution and being tied to Nokia just didn't help them both in the long-run.

Look to Mer. That's all you need to gather more information. And you'll walk away impressed, based on the prior correspondence of what you want from a device.
Yes, Mer is currently the best iteration of open source platform available. And that is why I am waiting to see how Sailfish builds on Mer, and will it offer everything I need.
Through Jolla and Sailfish I am waiting to see a successor to the Maemo/Harmattan usability, with a hope that it will live on and not be cornered like Nokia did with its own line of open devices.

Originally Posted by juiceme View Post
Well WP8 has an user experience. Do you consider it a success?

Originally Posted by gerbick View Post
Not at all. User experience can be good or bad. WP8's UI is pretty damn bad and boring to me... Harmattan still wins mobile UX in my opinion. Maemo 5 is a close second.

UX can make or break a platform. That will stand. The rest what you're talking about is access. And we agree there - I want access to that **** too. But not at the expense of the UX of when I'm not in the terminal. I like to do a lot of things at once, simple things. And I don't like to remember commands in order to make a phone call to my wife.
The worst problem with WP8 is not the UI, really. It's the whole concept where you cannot DO anything with the device. I mean, think about if you had the Metro UI on a Maemo device, but underneath it was Linux core, and all the interfaces were open. You could replace the UI if you wanted, with something you liked more, or customize it to look to your liking, if you find it boring.

The problem with WP and iOS is the fact you cannot do anything to it, this is why closed systems are evil. As long as you want to do what the stevejobsies and billgateses of the world think you need to do your freedom and liberty is taken away from you
 
gerbick
2013-05-13 , 14:05
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#2842
juiceme, allow me to say that I thoroughly enjoy this discussion despite coming from differing angles/perspectives and it's maintained a very casual and informative demeanor.

Thank you for that.
 
jalyst is offline jalyst
2013-05-13 , 15:01
Moderator | Posts: 5,320 | Thanked: 4,464 times | Joined on Oct 2009
#2843
+1

I was going to respond to your response to me earlier, but there was really nothing to address, as we're basically coming from the same position, + time is a rather precious commodity to me lately.
 
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Dave999 is offline Dave999
2013-05-13 , 15:19
Posts: 7,075 | Thanked: 9,073 times | Joined on Oct 2009 @ Moon! It's not the East or the West side... it's the Dark Side
#2844
Plus one!

The off topic thread is by far the best when it come to area of jolla. It's free and without slow posts.
__________________
Do something for the climate today! Anything!

I don't trust poeple without a Nokia n900...
 
praveenchand is offline praveenchand
2013-05-13 , 15:29
Posts: 440 | Thanked: 203 times | Joined on May 2010
#2845
I am the other half

High Expectations...
__________________
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Nokia 3310 -> Nokia 6030 -> Nokia N95 -> Nokia X6 -> Nokia N900 -> Nokia N9 -> Nokia Lumia 1520
Last edited by praveenchand; 2013-05-13 at 15:38.
 
jalyst is offline jalyst
2013-05-13 , 15:30
Moderator | Posts: 5,320 | Thanked: 4,464 times | Joined on Oct 2009
#2846
video does not exist...
 
mikecomputing is offline mikecomputing
2013-05-13 , 15:32
Posts: 3,464 | Thanked: 5,107 times | Joined on Feb 2010 @ Gothenburg in Sweden
#2847
Originally Posted by jalyst View Post
video does not exist...
porn is not allowed on utube.
__________________
Keep safe and healthy
 
Dave999's Avatar
Dave999 is offline Dave999
2013-05-13 , 15:33
Posts: 7,075 | Thanked: 9,073 times | Joined on Oct 2009 @ Moon! It's not the East or the West side... it's the Dark Side
#2848
Originally Posted by mikecomputing View Post
porn is not allowed on utube.
Phone sex?
__________________
Do something for the climate today! Anything!

I don't trust poeple without a Nokia n900...
 
praveenchand is offline praveenchand
2013-05-13 , 15:39
Posts: 440 | Thanked: 203 times | Joined on May 2010
#2849
Edited...:-)
might have already posted...
__________________
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Nokia 3310 -> Nokia 6030 -> Nokia N95 -> Nokia X6 -> Nokia N900 -> Nokia N9 -> Nokia Lumia 1520
 
jalyst is offline jalyst
2013-05-13 , 15:57
Moderator | Posts: 5,320 | Thanked: 4,464 times | Joined on Oct 2009
#2850
Originally Posted by praveenchand View Post
Edited...:-)
might have already posted...
your edit beat tissot... just
http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...postcount=1177
 
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