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Poll: How much would you be willing to pay for a Neo900 (complete device) with TI DM3730 1GHz/512M-RAM/1GB
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How much would you be willing to pay for a Neo900 (complete device) with TI DM3730 1GHz/512M-RAM/1GB

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joerg_rw is offline joerg_rw
2013-08-29 , 17:56
Posts: 2,222 | Thanked: 12,651 times | Joined on Mar 2010 @ SOL 3
#191
Originally Posted by misiak View Post
... The usage of board like GTA04 would happily give us many possibilites to extend it LATER and by other projects. Here are GTA04 hw specifications. It has quad band modem, FM receiver and trasmitter, GPS chip with connector for external antenna, camera support, 3d acceleration, wifi, bluetooth, usb, sensors, connector for external memory, AV jack out, stereo speakers support, 2 builtin buttons, 4 leds, torch/flash controller, rfid chip...
Correct, and we plan to keep all that, and add some more maybe
Originally Posted by misiak View Post
What I see it lacks in current design:
- support for both eMMC and microSD
We're aware about that and working on it. It's one of the adaptions that Neo900 needs since GTA04 is not on par with N900 here. Actually this particular point is a bit problematic since GTA04 WLAN chip ate the eMMC interface. (open WLAN chips are hard to find and you don't have much of a choice about the interface). We're still in the early evaluation phase and already doing tasks we actually shouldn't do before we see a certain level of interest that makes the project likely to happen. But hey ;-)
Originally Posted by misiak View Post
- more hardware buttons and keyboard (but i think they can be connected somehow)
That's an easy supplement that just needs layout on PCB. We however will improve the kbd matrix slightly to avoid the N-key rollover problem described in http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_Subsystems#Keyboard
Originally Posted by misiak View Post
- infrared transmitter (maybe the n900's one can be used? if not, i would happily pay a few more € for a rx/tx ir component)
Adding simple IRTX is a nobrainer (I'm puzzled about it missing in GTA04?) I think GTA04 already has option for IrDA aka IR-rx/tx (on RS232). We will add sth like that to Neo900
Originally Posted by misiak View Post

What I see it has better than N900:
- better CPU
- more RAM
- more NAND
- working USB 2.0 OTG out-of-the-box
- more sensors
so far correct
Originally Posted by misiak View Post
- more leds
actually not. GTA04 has 4 LED units, while N900 has 3 units in the 3-color indicator LED plus 6 LEDs to illuminate kbd. (plus the IR-TX LED, see above). we'll adapt that to be on par with N900, so you don't miss any functionality in Neo900.
Originally Posted by misiak View Post
- RFID
- quite open manual with schematics
one of the key features. Why "quite"? If anything isn't as open as it should be, please holler. This (GTA04) project is based on OPENmoko and called OPENphoenux. We take pride in being as open as we can reasonably be, we even select our chips according to their openness, which is sth not that many customers really grok instantly incl all the implications. Back when, we had a hard time accepting the glamo chip's NDAed manuals and gone that route only because there simply was no open GPU available. Same goes for GPU of TI-OMAP. But the device works without using the closed blob 3D-accel libs, so we can ignore our pain in the belly.
Originally Posted by misiak View Post

So I don't see any points where it is worse and cannot improve to reach complete feature set of N900, and I see many points where it is better Correct me if I'm wrong and I skipped something importand, maybe I forgot about some important point and it really misses something...
I don't think so, but we are inmidst the evaluation process right now. One problem is camera, the GTA04 has only a "crappy" 1.xMP cam. We might not be able to source equivalent to what Nokia used in N900, particularly when it shall be open. We need to see if we can get original N900 cam modules. I guess they must fit into the circuit since they did on N900 ;-)
Originally Posted by misiak View Post

Besides, having new motherboard, we could eliminate such a small annoyances as microSD magnet-based umnounting - why not remove that crap and allow user to decide when to unmount sd card (I guess this is not too much to be considered when designing? ).
Sure thing, things like these are a nobrainer, we will give great care to improve all those little annoyances. I'm famous for exactly such stuff. My title at Openmoko on my businesscard been "Hardware & Synergy"
Originally Posted by misiak View Post
Do you, joerg_rw, collect any community-based notes and suggestions to be taken into consideration when planning?
Well, look at this very thread ;-)

Thanks for your very helpful post
cheers
jOERG
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Last edited by joerg_rw; 2013-08-29 at 18:17.
 

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misiak is offline misiak
2013-08-29 , 18:18
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#192
Originally Posted by joerg_rw View Post
That's an easy supplement that just needs layout on PCB. We however will improve the kbd matrix slightly to avoid the N-key rollover problem described in http://wiki.maemo.org/N900_Hardware_Subsystems#Keyboard
Wow, didn't know there is such issue with N900's keyboard, never really happened to me to press these key combinations at once :O Good to know you're aware of them and plan to improve. As well as with magned on the back cover, etc.

Originally Posted by joerg_rw View Post
Sure thing, things like these are a nobrainer, we will give great care to improve all those little annoyances. I'm famous for exactly such stuff. My title at Openmoko on my businesscard been "Hardware & Synergy"
I know, I'm still impressed how you found out about the improperly soldered battery for keeping system time on N900 while removing the main battery... On my device it never worked, from the very beginning in 2009.

Originally Posted by joerg_rw View Post
Adding simple IRTX is a nobrainer (I'm puzzled about it missing in GTA04?) I think GTA04 already has option for IrDA aka IR-rx/tx. We will add sth like that to Neo900
I know it's a nobrainer, and I'm also puzzled about it missing in GTA04. Full IrDA would be another upgrade for N900 and I would be finally able to let my ancient N95 rest in peace.

Originally Posted by joerg_rw View Post
actually not. GTA04 has 4 LED units, while N900 has 3 units in the 3-color indicator LED plus 6 LEDs to illuminate kbd. (plus the IR-TX LED, see above). we'll adapt that to be on par with N900, so you don't miss any functionality in Neo900.
My mistake, I forgot about the keyboard leds and counted the main blue/green/yellow/red charging/missed calls/etc led as one, thanks for correcting me.

Originally Posted by joerg_rw View Post
one of the key features. Why "quite"? If anything isn't as open as it should be, please holler. This (GTA04) project is based on OPENmoko and called OPENphoenux. We take pride in being as open as we can reasonably be, we even select our chips according to their openness, which is sth not that many customers really grok instantly incl all the implications. Back when, we had a hard time accepting the glamo chip's NDAed manuals and gone that route only because there simply was no open GPU available. Same goes for GPU of TI-OMAP. But the device works without using the closed blob 3D-accel libs, so we can ignore our pain in the belly.

I don't think so, but we are inmidst the evaluation process right now. One problem is camera, the GTA04 has only a "crappy" 1.xMP cam. We might not be able to source equivalent to what Nokia used in N900, particularly when it shall be open. We need to see if we can get original N900 cam modules. I guess they must fit into the circuit since they did on N900 ;-)
I wrote "quite" as I didn't really investigate that issue and just saw there are some manuals and schematics I believe it is as open as possible, the "quite" was added only as a precaution in case it would appear somehow closed. And I don't have anything valuable to add to that case either.

Having an open camera would be nice, but having a good quality camera would also be good. Remember we have two cameras in our N900s in fact, so there could be place for both (and the quality of that "crappy" one would be uncomparably better than the one we have now, I'm sure) When you say "open", you mean that not only drivers, but also the schematics are open, right?

Originally Posted by joerg_rw View Post
Well, look at this very thread ;-)
Now there's a lot of notes

I'm gonna edit my previous post with information about two cameras in N900 and remove the word "quite" from "quite open manual with schematics" as now I saw them and can say that for my standards they are indeed very open. Thank you for your time to respond
 

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wolke is offline wolke
2013-08-29 , 18:50
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#193
i would like to uselessly register my ecstatic enthusiasm for this project, and give my solemn vow to give you as much money as i can swing the instant you start asking for it. unfortunately, this will probably be in the 600 euro range, unless a mysterious estranged billionaire uncle passes and leaves me his entire fortune.
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_David_ is offline _David_
2013-08-29 , 19:38
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#194
Originally Posted by 48GX View Post
n900 case is perfect.
I'd have to disagree. The N900 case is good, but if better cases are more available and could have:

1. 4 row bezel-less keyboard.
2. CBD-type anti-reflect display
3. Higher capacity, cheap batteries.

... then use the better cases.

I feel the need to point out that the demand for this is enthusiast-only and probably short-term (someone will come out with a HW kb Jolla/Nemo phone sooner or later).

Is there much point adding things that will never be supported? You need to first establish a price point. This involves anticipating demand because obviously you need to be sure of selling 200+. Looking at poll, aim for 300 Euros or lower...

Then fix the feature set and don't be tempted to mess with it too much later. Then start taking pre-orders a la Kickstarter.

More sophisticated devices could be built later once you've established a track record of actually getting a phone out. No disrespect but let's face it: it's so epic, it's hard to believe.
Last edited by _David_; 2013-08-29 at 19:54.
 

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48GX is offline 48GX
2013-08-29 , 20:38
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#195
Originally Posted by _David_ View Post
I'd have to disagree. The N900 case is good, but if better cases are more available and could have:

1. 4 row bezel-less keyboard.
2. CBD-type anti-reflect display
3. Higher capacity, cheap batteries.

... then use the better cases.

I feel the need to point out that the demand for this is enthusiast-only and probably short-term (someone will come out with a HW kb Jolla/Nemo phone sooner or later).

Is there much point adding things that will never be supported? You need to first establish a price point. This involves anticipating demand because obviously you need to be sure of selling 200+. Looking at poll, aim for 300 Euros or lower...

Then fix the feature set and don't be tempted to mess with it too much later. Then start taking pre-orders a la Kickstarter.

More sophisticated devices could be built later once you've established a track record of actually getting a phone out. No disrespect but let's face it: it's so epic, it's hard to believe.
When I said n900 case is perfect I was focusing my opinion in the fact that dos1 and joerg refer that project to a new PCB..

talking about creating a new case is a lose of time in my opinion and the creation of a new device.

who wants to invest in a new case?

new case means no more n900.

talking about the PCB would it be possible to change the speakers connectors? so we would be able to put bigger ones like the n95 , e90, bb9900.

that change doesn't require case mod's.

regards
 

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joerg_rw is offline joerg_rw
2013-08-29 , 21:56
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#196
Originally Posted by _David_ View Post
More sophisticated devices could be built later once you've established a track record of actually getting a phone out. No disrespect but let's face it: it's so epic, it's hard to believe.
You're aware of what I wrote in post#1? GolDeliCo/Nikolaus: 100+ GTA04 devices sold and running. And I contributed to building n*10^4 GTA02 aka Openmoko Neo Freerunner (please don't start a discussion about that device, I'm aware of all the bugs I got hired to iron out and actualy achieved to do so the very moment when production got stopped)

/j
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joerg_rw is offline joerg_rw
2013-08-29 , 22:05
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#197
Originally Posted by 48GX View Post
[...]talking about the PCB would it be possible to change the speakers connectors? so we would be able to put bigger ones like the n95 , e90, bb9900.

that change doesn't require case mod's.

regards
Please elaborate! I haven't looked into that speaker subject yet, so need pointers and/or data from you do be able to evaluate and consider.

Thanks
jOERG
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2013-08-29 , 22:19
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#198
Originally Posted by joerg_rw View Post
Please elaborate! I haven't looked into that speaker subject yet, so need pointers and/or data from you do be able to evaluate and consider.

Thanks
jOERG
here you have it:

http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=83638

if you and others find it interesting I can do more tests and give feedback.

regards
 

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joerg_rw is offline joerg_rw
2013-08-29 , 23:04
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#199
Originally Posted by 48GX View Post
here you have it:

http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=83638

if you and others find it interesting I can do more tests and give feedback.

regards
Checked that thread and what's got reported there, only serious post been by Dr.Frost who seems to know a bit about how audio actually works, i hear keywords like enclosure tuning, etc. I don't think we can do much on PCB to support an undefined mod that might get invented eventually. Maximum I could do is keep the PCB area clean around the speakers so no components are in the way when you replace your speakers.

A few further notes: speaker electrical impedance and power has to match the amp, speaker acoustic impedance and resonance frequency has to match the impedance transfromation and tuning of the enclosure(s, both front and rear of speaker).
And last not least: a speaker running into clipping (either in amp or in speaker coil) always sounds much louder than a speaker with higher power rating that doesn't clip at same signal. Alas clipping also means: it will sound to make your ears bleed.

anyway thanks for the pointer, I'll keep it on my long range radar. :-)
/j
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freemangordon is offline freemangordon
2013-08-30 , 06:03
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#200
Originally Posted by joerg_rw View Post
Checked that thread and what's got reported there, only serious post been by Dr.Frost who seems to know a bit about how audio actually works, i hear keywords like enclosure tuning, etc. I don't think we can do much on PCB to support an undefined mod that might get invented eventually. Maximum I could do is keep the PCB area clean around the speakers so no components are in the way when you replace your speakers.

A few further notes: speaker electrical impedance and power has to match the amp, speaker acoustic impedance and resonance frequency has to match the impedance transfromation and tuning of the enclosure(s, both front and rear of speaker).
And last not least: a speaker running into clipping (either in amp or in speaker coil) always sounds much louder than a speaker with higher power rating that doesn't clip at same signal. Alas clipping also means: it will sound to make your ears bleed.

anyway thanks for the pointer, I'll keep it on my long range radar. :-)
/j
Hmm, what about building a better speaker protection(even a simple RCL filter might do it if calculated correctly IMO), so we can (hopefully) remove at least one of the Nokia closed blobs - PA(speex?) plugin that protects the speakers. Take that "removal" with a grain of salt - I didn't checked if it is a standalone module.
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