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gerbick	2014-08-31 , 19:26
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Voicing this opinion does what for the community? Does more for the individual than it wil do for a company or project.

Care to prove otherwise? From the outside looking in, it's one person with a very serious problem causing more harm than help everywhere this individual has gone. If there is so much evil in one company, start your own positive endeavor and lead by example.

Is constant negativity going to accomplish anything positive or just give a person an ongoing stage to say their rant without end? So far, that's the case and I've yet to see anything that benefits anybody but this ONE person.

Care to prove otherwise or just unrelentlessly continue attack after attack? I see absolutely nothing positive from this continued posturing and aggravation from either side. Endeavor to fix things or shut the **** up.

I've read enough. I've seen enough. I don't think anybody else wants to even see anything else but a normal, sane, adult resolution. Nothing else suffices; and I don't mean kowtowing to some obviously broken and egocentric, self-serving unnecessarily ongoing rant like some damn child that's throwing a temper tantrum.

Offer to fix things or stop saying the same things over and over again.

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NokiaFanatic	2014-08-31 , 20:04
Posts: 337 \| Thanked: 891 times \| Joined on Jul 2012 @ Royaume Uni.	#262

Originally Posted by LouisDK

Have you tried the Webcat browser?

Nope - but I will give it a go!

pango	2014-08-31 , 20:56
Posts: 114 \| Thanked: 37 times \| Joined on Aug 2014	#263

Originally Posted by Dave999

So what should jolla do and how?

"also it does not help, that jolla essentially has raped the term "open" PR wise like any other corporation has done before. there, I said it out loud."

Haha love this line. Not sure that a fully agree or maybe I do, Ticky question. But I do love the line. Good one.

Reading the log, one thing some seem to lament is that since Jolla came on board, a lot of stuff has been hidden behind "it is confidential" smokescreen. Others elsewhere have been making the point that Jolla have moved from the likes of TMO to the likes of TJC to retain better control of what is discussed and how. Some seem to wonder if Nokia was more open than Jolla in the FOSS areas.

Perhaps Jolla should start by being more transparent and engaging the community on the community's terms more. That's a first step in the quest for openness, of course. Sorting out FOSS issues regarding components etc. is another matter. Perhaps it could be transparently discussed first.

Nobody is disputing Jolla's right to a business. Perhaps some components must remain closed. I guess people thinking this way are disagreeing with the way Jolla are approaching all that.

pango	2014-08-31 , 21:12
Posts: 114 \| Thanked: 37 times \| Joined on Aug 2014	#264

Originally Posted by gerbick

Voicing this opinion does what for the community? Does more for the individual than it wil do for a company or project.

Care to prove otherwise? From the outside looking in, it's one person with a very serious problem causing more harm than help everywhere this individual has gone. If there is so much evil in one company, start your own positive endeavor and lead by example.

I guess you are referring to fk_lx. In reality, there are multiple voices sharing the concern about lack of transparency from Jolla - and their view that it is negatively impacting things. Check no further than the IRC log a few messages back, several critical voices on Twitter or the posts from myself and some others in this thread (including jalyst's great post on page 3) where Jolla's PR is called into question.

Originally Posted by gerbick

Is constant negativity going to accomplish anything positive or just give a person an ongoing stage to say their rant without end? So far, that's the case and I've yet to see anything that benefits anybody but this ONE person.

Any one person is irrelevant as far as the larger goal goes. A more open, transparent Jolla has a better chance at keeping a much needed following going on. So goes the thinking, anyway. I must say I have been worried that Jolla's attitude is not the best community-wise and eventually it might start hurting them. People who voice this concern are not out to hurt Jolla. (fk_lx may by now be out to hurt Jolla due to his own experience, but that's really an exception and a result of their falling out.)

Originally Posted by gerbick

Care to prove otherwise or just unrelentlessly continue attack after attack? I see absolutely nothing positive from this continued posturing and aggravation from either side. Endeavor to fix things or shut the **** up.

I guess a lot of people would have loved to see thp engage in the discussion to get both views, but he has consistently chosen against it. That makes discussion hard. Some might argue that two adults should be able to talk, but who am I to say.

Originally Posted by gerbick

I've read enough. I've seen enough. I don't think anybody else wants to even see anything else but a normal, sane, adult resolution.

So where's the discussion with both sides in it?

Originally Posted by gerbick

Nothing else suffices; and I don't mean kowtowing to some obviously broken and egocentric, self-serving unnecessarily ongoing rant like some damn child that's throwing a temper tantrum.

You?

Originally Posted by gerbick

Offer to fix things or stop saying the same things over and over again.

That's the problem, though, how do you fix things if the other party shuts up, shuts down and refuses to do anything about it.

Still, all this hoopla about fk_lx misses the really important topic: How will Jolla continue to build a fruitful community following around it and attract both FOSS talent and contribution. Not by alienating them, that's for sure.

	Dave999	2014-08-31 , 21:33
	Posts: 7,075 \| Thanked: 9,073 times \| Joined on Oct 2009 @ Moon! It's not the East or the West side... it's the Dark Side	#265

Originally Posted by pango

Reading the log, one thing some seem to lament is that since Jolla came on board, a lot of stuff has been hidden behind "it is confidential" smokescreen. Others elsewhere have been making the point that Jolla have moved from the likes of TMO to the likes of TJC to retain better control of what is discussed and how. Some seem to wonder if Nokia was more open than Jolla in the FOSS areas.

Perhaps Jolla should start by being more transparent and engaging the community on the community's terms more. That's a first step in the quest for openness, of course. Sorting out FOSS issues regarding components etc. is another matter. Perhaps it could be transparently discussed first.

Nobody is disputing Jolla's right to a business. Perhaps some components must remain closed. I guess people thinking this way are disagreeing with the way Jolla are approaching all that.

The comnunity ecpect more from jolla and jolla expects more from community.

its a dead end

Mybee jolla learned that communication and demands from users and community isnt an easy task so for now they back off for a while an regroup. End users like me dont have any responsibility to deliver anything still we have the money that componies need, and want so I sitting here and waiting for jolla to come to me. So being a repsentetive for any componies isnt easy. 1000 community members demands 1000 different things so maybe jolla isnt ready to face that atm. If so. Let them hang out and work and when they are ready the will come around.
Meanwhile, continue the speculation. I also have another theory what goes on within jolla right now. But I save it for another thread, time and universe.

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gerbick	2014-08-31 , 21:40
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Originally Posted by pango

Reading the log, one thing some seem to lament is that since Jolla came on board, a lot of stuff has been hidden behind "it is confidential" smokescreen.

Sorry to interrupt, but what you're honestly describing is how there's really a tricky way for a company that uses open source to make money from open source. Their contributions are going to be scrutinized and yet somehow, they have to still make money.

Face it, open source based companies can/will/have made money, but it's usually at the sacrifice of something. What you call a lack of transparency, the business-minded part of me just sees a company that is running into that difficult task of being open, contribute to open source and still make money.

Others elsewhere have been making the point that Jolla have moved from the likes of TMO to the likes of TJC to retain better control of what is discussed and how. Some seem to wonder if Nokia was more open than Jolla in the FOSS areas.

Sailfish has been ported to other devices. Maemo never was officially done as such. BME was never opened, it was reversed engineered. You're simply looking at "open" as how it affects you; not community per se. Open discussion does not make a company open; it makes it transparent.

Repositories make a company open. Look around, many companies do such. But the proprietary bits will always be behind closed doors. Just like executive decisions.

Things like such are better behind closed doors. Just like design by committee is very bad; so is letting a committee of disjoined folks that can't even agree on which shell is best.

Perhaps Jolla should start by being more transparent and engaging the community on the community's terms more. That's a first step in the quest for openness, of course. Sorting out FOSS issues regarding components etc. is another matter. Perhaps it could be transparently discussed first.

Actually I think it'll be better if you described a more transparent company, what makes them transparent, and what Jolla could do more than they already do. Community is nebulous, very vague. Their FOSS endeavors are noted; libhybris is being used by other companies. Even Ubuntu uses it.

Nobody is disputing Jolla's right to a business.

Glad to see you say that. But do you mean it? A business has the capability to run parts of itself behind closed doors. You've yet to discuss a fully open and profitable open company. Name two.

RedHat is rather hushed about a lot of the things they do. Want support? Pay for it. So what would make Jolla an open company to you? Give you everything, open to discussion, help them run their business... and if it fails, would you share in that too?

Perhaps some components must remain closed.

I, unfortunately, do believe so. Meritocracy works best when money isn't involved; but when community comes together to solve a problem for all.

I guess people thinking this way are disagreeing with the way Jolla are approaching all that.

And without a direction or option given thus far - mind you, I'm not picking on you, but you seem to be the most level-headed and most capable of expression yourself in a lot of forms here in these regards, but this is an open discussion, no pun intended - I think this will become a masturbatory exercise of opinion and no resolution.

I'll ignore the prior emotive based conversations. That part doesn't seem to want to be resolved. But how folks think Jolla should be run, I'm curious.

I've seen only opinion that affects the individual thus far. And that's wasted on a community based company endeavor like Jolla.

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gerbick	2014-08-31 , 21:47
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Originally Posted by pango

That's the problem, though, how do you fix things if the other party shuts up, shuts down and refuses to do anything about it.

Ever thought that your approach only had one outcome; nothing would be resolved in answering the questions/accusations as framed because that thought never crossed their collective minds? For once, look through lenses that do not belong to you; and that's unfortunately what I see now... the approach robbed Jolla of an avenue to respond because there nothing in their intent that matched the parameters of the question.

That's like asking a life-long vegetarian how to cook a steak. Besides the confused look you'll get, they'll have absolutely nothing to add to that inquiry.

Still, all this hoopla about fk_lx misses the really important topic: How will Jolla continue to build a fruitful community following around it and attract both FOSS talent and contribution. Not by alienating them, that's for sure.

Sorry, but he is a true problem and he's raised no awareness. Backdoor his oft-repeated sentiments as much as you like, his approach is maniacal and self-serving. Continue down that path as you see fit. He's alienated himself by trying to frame himself the victim whilst doing that to himself. I'll have nothing of it; last time I address his antics ever, anywhere.

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nodevel	2014-08-31 , 22:30
Posts: 752 \| Thanked: 2,808 times \| Joined on Jan 2011 @ Czech Republic	#268

Originally Posted by gerbick

Glad to see you say that. But do you mean it? A business has the capability to run parts of itself behind closed doors. You've yet to discuss a fully open and profitable open company. Name two.

RedHat is rather hushed about a lot of the things they do. Want support? Pay for it. So what would make Jolla an open company to you? Give you everything, open to discussion, help them run their business... and if it fails, would you share in that too?

Nah, facts about other companies and direct comparisons don't work for Pango. His answer will be "But Jolla is unlike" and will not address it further (except for cases where comparisons seemingly support his view, like the Toyota example).

Source: 27 pages of this circle discussion. Once you introduce facts to the discussion, "unlike" is the answer.

PS: The answer to this message will probably be "Blame Jolla and their PR, they had introduced the 'unlike' term, in which I'm now deliberately projecting whatever meaning that comes to my mind".

Last edited by nodevel; 2014-08-31 at 22:36.

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	endsormeans	2014-08-31 , 22:58
	Posts: 3,141 \| Thanked: 8,164 times \| Joined on Feb 2013 @ From my Gabriola Island hermitage, near the Edge of the World	#269

I agree gerbick
The whole sitch from end to end is termed "fouling the nest" .
Turns me off Jolla as a consequence ...sadly.
I have no interest in supporting any individual(s) or their views who do such devastation, pollution or poisoning in any forum or community.

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juiceme	2014-09-01 , 06:42
Community Council \| Posts: 4,920 \| Thanked: 12,867 times \| Joined on May 2012 @ Southerrn Finland	#270

As usual, @gerbick has voiced the clearest and sanest opinion on TMO. I hope the discussion on the topic will end now.

I am still lamenting I could not shanghai gerbick into Council as much as I tried... He'd sure be valuable member.