N900 is a target platform for PostMarketOS ! - Page 2 - maemo.org

Active Topics

Camera phone competition March 2023 "Endless" (35)
to General by Maemish - 2 days, 12 hrs ago
TLS 1.2 for N9 is ready (28)
to MeeGo / Harmattan by smartblu9 - 2 days, 13 hrs ago
Maemo repository (3)
to Community by torsen - 3 days, 5 hrs ago
Error after installing Leste on sdcard (11)
to Maemo 7 / Leste by Maemish - 4 days, 2 hrs ago
Introducing ubiboot N9 (multiboot OS loader) (1,393)
to Alternatives by smatkovi - 5 days, 9 hrs ago
more...

Page 2 of 3

< Prev

Next >

Thread Tools

r0kk3rz	2017-07-19 , 10:30
Posts: 440 \| Thanked: 2,256 times \| Joined on Jul 2014	#11

Originally Posted by romu

This means Mer doesn't use a mainline kernel? What differences (just for my knowledge)?

You can use Mer with mainline kernel if you want, but really then the question becomes "Why use Mer?".

Mer for the most part does not have a huge amount of packages available, and most of them are old. If you want something that's reasonably bleeding edge and you don't want to maintain a lot of stuff yourself then you'd pick something else. In this case that something else is Alpine Linux, but there are other options.

If however you want to use Android kernels and drivers, then those kernel versions are old and you usually need old packages to go along with it, which is where Mer becomes useful.

__________________
SirenSong v0.5
Like my work? buy me a beer

Last edited by r0kk3rz; 2017-07-19 at 10:35.

Quote & Reply |

The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to r0kk3rz For This Useful Post:
Amboss, eekkelund, Feathers McGraw, hardy_magnus, imaginaryenemy, juiceme, mosen, romu, t-b, taixzo

	wicket	2017-07-19 , 16:30
	Posts: 634 \| Thanked: 3,266 times \| Joined on May 2010 @ Colombia	#12

Originally Posted by r0kk3rz

If however you want to use Android kernels and drivers, then those kernel versions are old and you usually need old packages to go along with it, which is where Mer becomes useful.

The reason Mer uses old packages does not relate to the use of Android kernels and drivers but actually relates to tivoisation. There should be very few userland packages, if any at all, that are tied to a particular old kernel. Linus' number one rule for kernel development is "Don't break userspace," therefore old packages should be 100% ABI compatible with modern kernels.

Mer developers have previously stated that they chose to use out of date packages (which are unsupported upstream), as they are the last versions that are licensed under the GPL v2 which does not have the anti-tivoisation clauses introduced in the GPL v3. By keeping everything at GPL v2, it allows Mer to be marketed to many more vendors, those who have a problem with disclosing source code.

The truth of the matter is that Mer becomes useful when tivoisation is valued above stability and security. It's a sad state of affairs and is one of the main reasons I've struggled to warm to Sailfish.

__________________
~~DebiaN900 - Native Debian on the N900.~~ Deprecated in favour of Maemo Leste.

Maemo Leste for N950 and N9 (currently broken).
Devuan for N950 and N9.

Mobile devices with mainline Linux support - Help needed with documentation.

"Those who do not understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, poorly." - Henry Spencer

Quote & Reply |

The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to wicket For This Useful Post:
Amboss, eekkelund, Feathers McGraw, juiceme, mosen, nthn, sulu, t-b, taixzo, Zeta

craftyguy	2017-07-19 , 17:03
Posts: 455 \| Thanked: 278 times \| Joined on Dec 2009 @ Oregon, USA	#13

Originally Posted by romu

This means Mer doesn't use a mainline kernel? What differences (just for my knowledge)?

I have no idea about Mer, but I'm finding that the N900 has very good support for its hardware in the mainline kernel. We're definitely standing on the shoulders of giants here

Quote & Reply |

The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to craftyguy For This Useful Post:
Amboss, Feathers McGraw, hardy_magnus, juiceme, t-b, Xagoln

r0kk3rz	2017-07-19 , 17:10
Posts: 440 \| Thanked: 2,256 times \| Joined on Jul 2014	#14

Originally Posted by wicket

The reason Mer uses old packages does not relate to the use of Android kernels and drivers but actually relates to tivoisation. There should be very few userland packages, if any at all, that are tied to a particular old kernel. Linus' number one rule for kernel development is "Don't break userspace," therefore old packages should be 100% ABI compatible with modern kernels.

Mer developers have previously stated that they chose to use out of date packages (which are unsupported upstream), as they are the last versions that are licensed under the GPL v2 which does not have the anti-tivoisation clauses introduced in the GPL v3. By keeping everything at GPL v2, it allows Mer to be marketed to many more vendors, those who have a problem with disclosing source code.

The truth of the matter is that Mer becomes useful when tivoisation is valued above stability and security. It's a sad state of affairs and is one of the main reasons I've struggled to warm to Sailfish.

Tivoisation is part of it, but the kernel plays its part as well.

The old kernel is the hard requirement and as such you can't use new packages that require newer kernel features than is provided by old android kernel versions.

__________________
SirenSong v0.5
Like my work? buy me a beer

Quote & Reply |

The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to r0kk3rz For This Useful Post:
Amboss, craftyguy, Feathers McGraw, hardy_magnus, juiceme, mike727, nthn, t-b

	wicket	2017-07-19 , 19:20
	Posts: 634 \| Thanked: 3,266 times \| Joined on May 2010 @ Colombia	#15

Originally Posted by r0kk3rz

Tivoisation is part of it, but the kernel plays its part as well.

The old kernel is the hard requirement and as such you can't use new packages that require newer kernel features than is provided by old android kernel versions.

It seems we've got our wires crossed and we're talking about two different things.

Like you say, you can't use new packages that require newer kernel features that are not present in an old kernel. However, I understood we are talking about the reverse (old packages with new kernel). I thought that were discussing why Mer doesn't use a mainline kernel, thus I was explaining how the use of a new/mainline kernel would not prevent the use of the old packages provided by Mer.

It's worth noting that Mer doesn't actually include a kernel (or at least it wasn't included the last time I checked). The kernel and drivers fall under hardware adaptation which is considered as a separate project.

Last edited by wicket; 2017-07-19 at 19:37.

Quote & Reply |

The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to wicket For This Useful Post:
Amboss, Feathers McGraw, juiceme, mike727, mosen, mrsellout, nthn, sicelo

r0kk3rz	2017-07-19 , 20:25
Posts: 440 \| Thanked: 2,256 times \| Joined on Jul 2014	#16

Originally Posted by wicket

I thought that were discussing why Mer doesn't use a mainline kernel, thus I was explaining how the use of a new/mainline kernel would not prevent the use of the old packages provided by Mer.

It's worth noting that Mer doesn't actually include a kernel (or at least it wasn't included the last time I checked). The kernel and drivers fall under hardware adaptation which is considered as a separate project.

Yeah understood, I was coming from the original question, which was "Why is this project not using Mer?".

and unless you choose to shackle yourself to those two topics we discussed, theres no major reason to use Mer and a bunch of reasons to find something else.

__________________
SirenSong v0.5
Like my work? buy me a beer

Quote & Reply |

The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to r0kk3rz For This Useful Post:
juiceme, wicket

	mrsellout	2017-07-19 , 21:30
	Posts: 889 \| Thanked: 2,087 times \| Joined on Sep 2010 @ Manchester	#17

Originally Posted by craftyguy

I have no idea about Mer, but I'm finding that the N900 has very good support for its hardware in the mainline kernel. We're definitely standing on the shoulders of giants here

When MeeGo was still to be a thing, there was a Hardware adaptation team tasked with bringing full open functionality to the n900, with a couple of exceptions:

[1]
In N900 HW adaptation there is 2 problematic components that we are NOT planning to open as such; the other is BME, battery management entity from Nokia, and the other is OpenGLES implementation from SGX. You can use the device without openGLES, if you don’t care about HW accelerated 3D features. Without the BME the device is practically useless.
(Fully functional MeeGo images containing those closed components will also be provided, thanks for asking..)

Maybe a search for the sources for the MeeGo adaptation will aid you in your quest, not just in this adaptation, but in others too. Here's a video review of MeeGo 1.2, including phone call functionality https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4vN_Xn0jq0

[1] http://thehandheldblog.com/2010/05/2...t-on-the-n900/

Quote & Reply |

The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to mrsellout For This Useful Post:
Amboss, craftyguy, juiceme, taixzo

craftyguy	2017-07-20 , 04:08
Posts: 455 \| Thanked: 278 times \| Joined on Dec 2009 @ Oregon, USA	#18

What's all this talk about outdated operating systems?! Ok, ok, some of their work, which has been upstreamed to kernel.org and/or the maemo.org wiki, has been extremely useful

In any case, I'm glad this device gets a new lease on life. There's still much work to do!

@tomislav - thank you for selling me your N900, after I foolishly sold mine ~5 years ago. Know that this device is being put towards a good use

Quote & Reply |

The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to craftyguy For This Useful Post:
Amboss, handaxe, juiceme, Kabouik, Xagoln

	endsormeans	2017-08-22 , 08:12
	Posts: 3,141 \| Thanked: 8,164 times \| Joined on Feb 2013 @ From my Gabriola Island hermitage, near the Edge of the World	#19

welllll...
I think postmarketOS will do just fine for the n900...
Alpine has been around for as long as the first internet tablet...
So they aren't a fly-by-night OS that will disappear tomorrow..
they have a proven track record...
Hell ...
it isn't the first time Alpine and the N.I.T.'s have run into each other.....
back in the day I remember someone getting Alpine to work on the n800...
jeez ...9 or 10 years ago now....I think..
it was alpine email ...but still..

I am glad that Alpine for the n900 is a viable alternative...
(looks good from what I've read...shy of telephony..I think..)

__________________
Lurker since 2007, Member since 2013, Certifiable since 1972

Owner of :
1-n770 (in retirement), 3-n800's / 3-n810's (still in daily use), 5-n900's ((3 are flawless, 1 loose usb ( parts), 1 has no telephony (parts))
3-nexus 5's : 1 w/ Floko Pie 9.1 (running beautifully) waiting for Stable Droid 10 rom, 1 w/ ̶Ubuntu Touch, 1 with Maru OS (intend maemo leste when ready)
1/2 - neo900 pre- "purchased" in 2013. N̶o̶w̶ ̶A̶w̶a̶i̶t̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶r̶e̶f̶u̶n̶d̶ ̶p̶r̶o̶c̶e̶s̶s̶ ̶l̶a̶s̶t̶ ̶f̶e̶w̶ ̶y̶e̶a̶r̶s̶ - neo900 start up declared officially dead -
Lost invested funds.

PIMP MY N8X0 (Idiot's Guide and a video walkthrough)http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=94294
THE LOST GRONMAYER CATALOGShttp://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php...ight=gronmayer
N8X0 VIDEO ENCODING THE EASY WAYhttp://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php...ght=mediacoder
242gb ON N800http://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=90634
THE PAIN-FREE MAEMO DEVELOPMENT LIVE DISTRO-ISO FOR THE NOOB TO THE PROhttp://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=95567
AFFORDABLE MASS PRODUCTION FOR MAEMO PARTShttp://talk.maemo.org/showthread.php?t=93325

Meateo balloons now available @ Dave999's Meateo Emporium

Quote & Reply |

The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to endsormeans For This Useful Post:
Amboss, juiceme, peterleinchen, wicket

craftyguy	2017-08-23 , 00:14
Posts: 455 \| Thanked: 278 times \| Joined on Dec 2009 @ Oregon, USA	#20

Well telephony is obviously a priority, and it should be Relatively Straight Forward(TM) using ofono. I just haven't gotten around to giving it a serious go-ahead yet since I'm working on other higher priority features/functionality in postmarketOS!

Help is welcome!