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2008-06-10
, 19:21
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Posts: 1,656 |
Thanked: 1,196 times |
Joined on Apr 2008
@ Alabama, USA
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#72
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I hot Icelanddreams copy and pasted that. Because I know the song but not that good. It was an oldie when I was born.
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Home Page - Preenv Wiki
**All Posts are made as a Community Member and not as a Super Moderator of this site.
Home Page - Preenv Wiki
**All Posts are made as a Community Member and not as a Super Moderator of this site.
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2008-06-10
, 19:30
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Posts: 449 |
Thanked: 51 times |
Joined on Apr 2008
@ eastern north carolina usa
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#73
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welll i remember hearing it as a kid...in the 70s....i like oldies
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2008-06-10
, 19:31
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Posts: 90 |
Thanked: 32 times |
Joined on Sep 2006
@ Bucuresti, Romania
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#74
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Good points.... I have to stress out that I'm describing my _subjective_ experience. I'm not saying that others don't find these devices useful beside being lovely (and yes, I'm very proud of my toys 
). But my point is that we should focus on how to improve the experience of using this device, and pass to Nokia these desires. This sounds a lot like market-droid-speak, but it isn't.
So allow me to quote you in trying to make a constructive approach here (even if it may sound like bashing, and blame-throwing, it isn't; all of you guys, think of this as a post-mortem on the current status of NITs, and a discussion on where we want to take them).
So you say that two years and three iterations is too short to make a new device for a new market out of thin air. I say it's about enough, and the next iteration should be consumer-level. iPods went from nothing to millions sold in less than 2 years.
I'm not complaining that the tablets are not at consumer-level so far; but I hope that the next iteration will be at true consumer level; I invested too much passion, energy and interest in these specific devices to watch light-heartadly how it is gonna be surpased and killed by iThings that will lock devs (and myself) out of it. So what I'm trying to do is make Nokia listen to my and my fellow NIT users requests for improvement, and take action on them, so in the next iteration we will get a consumer-level tablet that is still very friendly to developers and OSS crowd.
The guys and girls who built that did it good starting from nothing. It took them 5 years, yes. But we (read IT community and designers) already have good ideas on how to proceed - why throw away and re-learning everything from scratch how to make mobile computing ? And spending another 5 years on that ? Maemo as platform is already 3 years old, and it's getting dated by the minute now. The moment Android comes alive on a HTC device, doing everything NIT does, but with better capabilites, NITs and Nokia will be in big trouble. I'll repet myself, I belive that this is the latest critical point to change the mission of NIT and make it into a mainstream platform. So think about what should be next in NIT line and voice your thoughts.
Damn, running into limitations. Will follow up on next post.
). But my point is that we should focus on how to improve the experience of using this device, and pass to Nokia these desires. This sounds a lot like market-droid-speak, but it isn't.So allow me to quote you in trying to make a constructive approach here (even if it may sound like bashing, and blame-throwing, it isn't; all of you guys, think of this as a post-mortem on the current status of NITs, and a discussion on where we want to take them).
Originally Posted by Benson
Good point. But NIT's are not the ground-breaking devices they want to be, user experince-wise. We've had time to form an idea about what a PDA does, what a PMP does, what do you expect from a low-end and from a high-end laptop since years ago. In this case, it's not about reinventing the wheel from scratch, it's about taking all the wheel designs made so far and figure out how to make a new better wheel. I'd expect incremental inovation from a known base, not starting from 0 like Newton and Palm did. But it seems that the tablets do not capitalize on that knowledge.
Two years? You really thought these machines would be awesome consumer devices in two years from introduction? Seriously, laptops didn't become mainstream-capable in two years from introduction; neither did PCs; neither did cellular telephones; nor yet PDAs... Why should these be different? (I'd give you 3 years or so, as there was some phone work (the 7710) preceding the 770 in the same line; but those things didn't go mainstream in 3 years either...) I think this expectation was bound to leave you disappointed.
So you say that two years and three iterations is too short to make a new device for a new market out of thin air. I say it's about enough, and the next iteration should be consumer-level. iPods went from nothing to millions sold in less than 2 years.
I'm not complaining that the tablets are not at consumer-level so far; but I hope that the next iteration will be at true consumer level; I invested too much passion, energy and interest in these specific devices to watch light-heartadly how it is gonna be surpased and killed by iThings that will lock devs (and myself) out of it. So what I'm trying to do is make Nokia listen to my and my fellow NIT users requests for improvement, and take action on them, so in the next iteration we will get a consumer-level tablet that is still very friendly to developers and OSS crowd.
Originally Posted by Benson
I'm well aware of those pesky lawyers and their legal implications. My point is that the worst position to be in is half-closed and half-OSS. You'll annoy everybody and you'll be in no side. In my country we call this "haveing your *** in two boats will only get you drawned".
And nothing prevents them from developing (and licensing) the support for these features later; think of it as a free bonus 5% chance of upgrade, not as a 95% chance of failure to upgrade to something never promised...
Originally Posted by Benson
Two years, three iterations later, I think that this product line should take momentum. If not now, then when ?. NITs already competitors that are on more-or-less equal terms now, and which hadn't the two year advantage. I strongly suspect that if this line doesn't take off now, it will never get the chance again, even if this happens for simple economic reasons.
You couldn't have known it, I think, at the beginning, but for some time it's been known we're on 3 of 5 steps to mainstream; to say that because it's been 3 years and 3 steps, and we're not there yet, that they will never be ready, seems flat-out ridiculous.
Originally Posted by Benson
[/QUOTE]
You'll get it; remember that Apple had Newtons out since '93, and the direct ancestors of that m105 go back to the Pilot 1000, from '96; in 5 years, there'll be mobile internet/computer devices that will compare quite well to that.
The guys and girls who built that did it good starting from nothing. It took them 5 years, yes. But we (read IT community and designers) already have good ideas on how to proceed - why throw away and re-learning everything from scratch how to make mobile computing ? And spending another 5 years on that ? Maemo as platform is already 3 years old, and it's getting dated by the minute now. The moment Android comes alive on a HTC device, doing everything NIT does, but with better capabilites, NITs and Nokia will be in big trouble. I'll repet myself, I belive that this is the latest critical point to change the mission of NIT and make it into a mainstream platform. So think about what should be next in NIT line and voice your thoughts.
Damn, running into limitations. Will follow up on next post.
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2008-06-10
, 19:43
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Posts: 228 |
Thanked: 30 times |
Joined on Mar 2008
@ Ontario & Iceland
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#75
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Originally Posted by andrewfblack
oh the wonders of technology.... I don't know it *that* well either.
I hot Icelanddreams copy and pasted that. Because I know the song but not that good. It was an oldie when I was born.
But when it was popular I wasn't too young to understand it. Compare then with now (that war in Iraq) and I am thoroughly confused by what is happening regarding war. That change in thinking seems to bleed over to the insanity that is the iThread.
Damn, running into limitations. Will follow up on next post.
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2008-06-10
, 19:45
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Posts: 449 |
Thanked: 51 times |
Joined on Apr 2008
@ eastern north carolina usa
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#76
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georgia...fun place to pass thru...hitchiked from new york to florida stoped there a few times...fun place...
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no longer here...leave me a pm......meeep....
no longer here...leave me a pm......meeep....
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2008-06-10
, 19:54
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Posts: 90 |
Thanked: 32 times |
Joined on Sep 2006
@ Bucuresti, Romania
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#77
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Me goes again... Is there, anywhere, a prize for the thread with the longest series of lenghtly posts ? 
.
. But I belive that you got my point: that we should take active steps in driving what's becoming of N900, and how one expects to interact with it, instead of passively wait for another "developer" device that Nokia will throw at us. ITT crowd is the driving force of the NIT extra-value, which is considerable, and I think Nokia will actually listen to our requests of having on the 4th iteration a finished and polished device that wouldn't stand in shame next to 2nd generation iPhone when trying to open a page to let me see what movies are on tonite.
Originally Posted by Benson
No, actually I wasn't aware that Ubuntu mobile uses Hildon for its UI. That it supports it, like in a lib, yeah, but having it be THE UI, no, I didn't know. I admit, I never did look in depth at Ubuntu mobile distribution, and I don't even know if it can be downloaded and tested from somewhere, but I was using that more like a generic example, and I think that my point, that it is a bad idea having Hildon break perfectly good GTK applications, was well understood
You know Ubuntu mobile is not Ubuntu, hence not a "standard mainstream distro", and uses Hildon, right?
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Originally Posted by Benson
I've seen that. A video, and nothing in the wild. I got better hopes on this:USB video. But I wouldn't call a mini-B female with autosensing for which you can't get cables "proper USB host port". Your point of OOo is quite valid
.... Well, I hope you saw the noBounds video, right? That's going to be killer on the N900 (step 4/5); you're on the money with what needs to happen, but Nokia's working on it already.
It's unimaginable that the N900 won't have at least twice the RAM; I'd guess 4x; we've already got dynamic CPU frequency, to a max of 400 MHZ; OOo is still slow... But the N900 will get around double the maximum performance, so yes, that'll work. But remember, OOo will violate the "should focus on how one interacts with a handheld device, not how to cut pixels to fit a desktop environment on a handheld device."; that's always a tradeoff, and OOo won't (IMHO) be possible to convert to a nice hand-held app. Still, once the performance is there, I'm sure it'll be available for all who want it, regardless of the OS.
. But I belive that you got my point: that we should take active steps in driving what's becoming of N900, and how one expects to interact with it, instead of passively wait for another "developer" device that Nokia will throw at us. ITT crowd is the driving force of the NIT extra-value, which is considerable, and I think Nokia will actually listen to our requests of having on the 4th iteration a finished and polished device that wouldn't stand in shame next to 2nd generation iPhone when trying to open a page to let me see what movies are on tonite.
Originally Posted by Benson
I'm not writing it off. Like I said, I invested too much in it (even if my work is not visible in the community, I know, I know). What I want is to MAKE SURE that what comes is the best of all possible outcomes, and from my point of view, it doesn't seem that NIT/Maemo Next Generation is ready to become that... it can be so much more !
Yeah, and you'll get it back; they've heard, and they're working. Just don't write it off for good, because the best is yet to come. Well, in classic backwards fashion, I spent most of the first 80% of these comments answering your last question... Enjoy!
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2008-06-10
, 20:07
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Posts: 5,335 |
Thanked: 8,187 times |
Joined on Mar 2007
@ Pennsylvania, USA
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#78
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Originally Posted by ddalex
It's déjà vu all over again, but here goes:
So you say that two years and three iterations is too short to make a new device for a new market out of thin air. I say it's about enough, and the next iteration should be consumer-level. iPods went from nothing to millions sold in less than 2 years.
Had Nokia locked and limited the range of functionality the Internet Tablets offer as much as Apple did with the iPods, particularly those early models, I expect we'd have seen much more refinement of, and polish on, the product. However, the devices would have attracted much less attention, as their potential would have been greatly diminished.
Instead, Nokia invested their development time in going broad, rather than deep, and offered a flexible, open platform. As Nokia and maemo add a bit more depth with each release of the hardware and software, the openness encourages others to step in and contribute to the platform. Additionally, maemo is able build upon, and share back with, other open source projects, which strengthens all involved. Obviously, the process of improvement isn't as rapid as many would like, but its momentum is growing.
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2008-06-10
, 20:19
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Posts: 90 |
Thanked: 32 times |
Joined on Sep 2006
@ Bucuresti, Romania
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#79
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Originally Posted by qole
I'd rather lazy on a Barcelona beach,
And you shouldn't sit in front of your computer too much, it isn't good for your health
With Margueritas in hand,
But life being what it is - a *****,
I'll never make it to wonderland.
Originally Posted by qole
This is what I want too. Even if I actually prefer real paper for the books
And I can read in bed with the lights out without disturbing my wife! I feel I've got some authority here; I'm a lifelong book reader. I've been tearing through stacks of novels for at least 30 years.
. I'll give it another try.
Originally Posted by qole
It's quite surprising how inflexible big companies are, even if they are declared enemies of M$. So Exchange support is a must have to make it in the corporate world. iPhone 2.0 does it, no ?
No Exchange support is a dealbreaker? That's like saying no MS Office document support is a dealbreaker. Perhaps Exchange support would be nice if you work in an office that has been lured away from standards-compliance by Microsoft, but there are workarounds even for those sad situations (eg. Texrat's web-based solution).
Originally Posted by qole
Never tried modesto, looks like I missed something.
As for GMail access, I'd say Modest, while still beta, is close enough for most geeky types to live with. It does a fine job of GMail IMAP.
Originally Posted by qole
Well, I'm asking for a consumer-level device.... Make the ports yourself and share, that's a great philosophy for OSS-tinkerers, but since most addins are anyhow platform-agnostic, why should I have to tweak them instead of having the mozilla-based browser accept them as they are, .xpi packets ? This is what I understand by consumer-level device
Not sure what add-ins you're looking for, and what coffin you're talking about, but some of the most popular ones have been ported over here. This being an open software platform, I'm sure others would appreciate it if you ported the ones you need and made them available for us.
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Originally Posted by qole
Cutting edge ? Maybe 2 years ago. It's not anymore cutting edge. iPhone has better hardware, with really working software. It's time to open the eyes, and see that while we love our tablets, in short term, if the platform will not evolve into something usable, and economically succesfull, it will be probably killed off by Nokia, or kept as an interesting side experiment.
Dude. What consumer level? There's no such thing as a consumer level for these things. This is cutting edge technology. I'm glad Nokia released the tablets before achieving this mythical consumer level. Why? Because getting to consumer level always involves a lot of paid developer time that drives the price up (for the iConsumer) and a lot of closed, secret beta testing that I can't be a part of. This way, I get to geek out on the coolest device that I've ever owned, and I paid half of what an iConsumer would have paid.
Originally Posted by qole
While I can do, and actually do the tinkering, not everyone is ready to make this invesment in learning the inner workings. I have Linux with Evolution on desktop precisely because this is what works for me. Better yet, I can drop a 8.04 Ubuntu on any computer and have any neofite browse the web and edit documents in no time (it's that polished, yes).
If you're bringing Windows vs Linux into the conversation (are you the same guy who said MS Exchange support was essential?), then NITs are exactly like desktop Linux. If you roll up your sleeves, pop open the hood and do some tinkering, you can get your tablet purring beautifully.
But even desktop-centered Linux distributions like Ubuntu don't have the polish and ease-of-use that Mac or Windows has.
But I can't drop a tablet in the same way on someone and ask them to see what's on tonite on the tele, because in 5 minutes they will scream in frustration. Still, I have yet to see someone unhappy with the way their iPhone works. eeePc is a NIT-like story, nobody that isn't a geek is using it.
Originally Posted by qole
Why do they have to be separate ? I want both the polish and the openness.
The tablets are the same way, you sacrifice some polish for a whole lot more control and flexibility. Sure, no multitouch. But no jailbreaking required, either.
I love these threads; it always gets me worked up when people tell me my baby is ugly.
And what do you prefer ? Somebody telling you that your baby is desfigured by a disease, hurt your feelings, but actually having time and work on a solution before it's too late, or you'd rather be told by everybody how nice and beautiful your baby is, feel all nice, cozy and warm inside, and end up with a prematurely dead baby? Maybe a harsh comparation, but I think we're moving to a turning point here, and NITs must not miss the consumer boat.
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2008-06-10
, 20:24
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Posts: 5,478 |
Thanked: 5,222 times |
Joined on Jan 2006
@ St. Petersburg, FL
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#80
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Originally Posted by Texrat
I try, oh how I try, but there's always some that seep through the cracks.
We don't get enough of these polarizing threads. I blame GeneralAntilles for intimidating the noobs.
no longer here...leave me a pm......meeep....