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SD69 is offline SD69
2008-10-29 , 18:05
Posts: 1,513 | Thanked: 2,248 times | Joined on Mar 2006 @ US
#141
Originally Posted by allnameswereout View Post
The point in this regard is also merely a default setting. IOW, assume the user wants an application fullscreen with a simple setting to make it not fullscreen (and more applications which make use of the powerful touchscreen). This is because this default setting is what new users (whom we want to attract to this environment) want.
Interesting that the discussion included this. Hildon is derived from the 7710, which was the first handheld device to combine a touchscreen and a user key for toggling an app between different display formats.
 
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benny1967 is offline benny1967
2008-10-29 , 22:55
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#142
Originally Posted by allnameswereout View Post
Good. The point in this regard is also merely a default setting. IOW, assume the user wants an application fullscreen with a simple setting to make it not fullscreen (and more applications which make use of the powerful touchscreen).
I had the impression you wanted fullscreen-only applications because that's what all users want, anyway, according to your market research. You named Canola as an example. I can't check right now, I never leave Canola installed on my tablet because its complicated interface drives me nuts, but if I remember correctly, you cannot choose with Canola. It is full screen an full screen only.

Anyway, I don't believe Nokia will offer such things as "default settings" that can be changed. Maybe I'm too pessimistic here, but I'm really, really pissed by the way they handled the transition to thumb-sized UI-Elements. When I got my first 770 with OS2005, things were cool. On the home screen, I had 4 applets. The RSS applet would show roughly twelve headlines at a glance. The contacts applet, which I mainly use as a roster for online contacts, would show almost all of the people I regularly chat with. And still there's be room for a clock and internet radio.

With "finger-friendly" OS2008, I have four (!!) headlines from the RSS reader and can choose only five contacts for display on my home screen. And that's it then. No room for any more applets. (Same with giant menus, scroll bars that take away space even though I use a stylus etc.)
The value of the device really decreased for me because of this. It's not as good as it was before.
Did Nokia offer a choice? Can I go to the system settings and say "no finger-friendly balderdash, please, I want information"? No. Although I guess it would have been easy as a system-wide setting.
So: No, I don't believe Nokia will do this. I'm pissed, really pissed, and I don't trust them any more on this.

Originally Posted by allnameswereout View Post
This is because this default setting is what new users (whom we want to attract to this environment) want.
I really envy you because you obviously have access to all these secret information from expensive market research. You know that users want full screen applications. You know that people don't go back in browser history more than 1 page. You know that people don't adjust volume/brightness. All these things. I wonder: Do the people who paid for this survey agree with your posting their findings in a public forum?

I don't have access to all this data. I can only say what I want. I do not want full screen apps because I always need the panel to switch between applications.
And while we're at it:
I don't want to "attract new users", either. (You guessed it, didn't you?) Who am I? Nokia's marketing droid? I am the consumer, not the producer! And I don't get some weird sexual satisfaction out of the fact that my favorite toy's market share is bigger than XX or at least increasing or whatever a fanboys goal might be. I want a product that works for me. If Nokia can't deliver, I'll buy elsewhere. If they can (and right now they still can), I don't care if millions of others buy what I buy.

Originally Posted by allnameswereout View Post
I suspect these users simply don't want change, nor welcome new(, less tech-inclined) users. Perhaps the N8x0 is the last from Nokia they like (also given they appear to be the same ones not excited by the summit or the HS*PA chipset). I believe they should jump on the next hacker/niche platform.
Oh, yes, there you write it yourself.
I just wonder why you seem to be so obsessed with Nokia's sales figures and the number of new users one could attract by doing this or that.

As I said, if Nokia really dumbs down this promising platform the way that was suggested here, you're right: The N800 will be my last tablet then. I'd probably go for a slightly larger netbook then or wait and see what happens on the MID-front...

Originally Posted by allnameswereout View Post
If you take what I written in the paragraphs above into account I don't see how you can see much devaluation. You use the same Maemo environment, with some very powerful features in the core OS to make the device more user-friendly (these features became known on the Maemo summit).
... just that what you call "user friendly" is aggressively hostile to me. (I bet you find the finger-sized menus and large scrollbars more "users friendly" than the old, small ones.)
And I wrote above why I see immediate devaluation: Those new UI-elements can't provide the same functionality as the old ones and there's no way to get the old functionality back.

Originally Posted by allnameswereout View Post
This is a usability issue though. Lets say you have your RSS reader convenienty in your browser, in full screen interface. After all, you are picking what you'd like to read more about. Once you click on a headline it shows the actual text of the article. You read it, and then you conveniently pick the next headline.
Why would I want to do it sequentially???
I do it pretty much this way on my cell phone, but, as I said, not because I want to but because I need to - and it's inconvenient.

Originally Posted by allnameswereout View Post
I want to see Maemo, Linux and the NIT more widely used by people who also are able to use the device.
Seriously: Why? Are you getting paid by sold item or what?

Originally Posted by allnameswereout View Post
For this the usability has to improve, as well as the UI.
I gain nothing if the usability improves for others and gets worse for me (as it happend with OS2008).
I am an altruistic person. I donate. I help people. I step back if I feel others deserve something more than I do. But I do not see the point of having a bad user experience myself only to be able to say "Wow! Look at the market share it gained!"

Originally Posted by allnameswereout View Post
Else, if that doesn't happen, other corporations will make it happen and the NIT will eventually fade away like Sharp Zaurus.
This can always happen. There can be a new manager in charge tomorrow in Finnland and he can kill the NITs for good just for personal reasons. You never know. The NITs could die because of your proposed UI changes. Or in spite of them. And guess what? It doesn't matter. Just overcome your fear of big shops and see what alternatives we have right now. Then go and read what there'll probably be in 6 months.

Originally Posted by allnameswereout View Post
The touchscreen is one of the components which makes the NIT unique; lets abuse it so much that it adds substantional value to the platform.
Is it? It's neat, but its nothing more than a way to emulate a mouse. A netbook with some touchpad-style thing instead would serve the same purpose. I'm not passionately in love with the touchscreen.
Last edited by benny1967; 2010-09-07 at 20:08.
 
jwire is offline jwire
2008-10-31 , 20:10
Posts: 7 | Thanked: 0 times | Joined on Aug 2008 @ Eugene, OR, USA
#143
Maybe Nokia can't figure out what the NIT's true market is because they have too many preconceptions occluding the issue and not enough insightful research.

Nokia, put a software-defined radio (SDR, see article here) in the N9xx so users can do the obvious PMP sorts of things like digital radio, TV and analog stuff. New users probably understand these features' value. Perhaps we can then make it synch PIMs and calendars.

Moreover, it seems to me that, given software control over the radios, Nokia could then add some cb-like features. (I don't know what other new ideas people are contributing because I've been "generally blocked" from that Maemo site by General Antilles -- sans the courtesy of explanation; the only innovation-squelcher worse than a busy bureaucrat is an arrogant one!).

Nokia has the stirrings of a very popular system here, but for the blindness of a maturing corporation's inertia it could succeed!
 
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qole is offline qole
2008-10-31 , 20:22
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#144
Originally Posted by jwire View Post
Moreover, it seems to me that, given software control over the radios, Nokia could then add some cb-like features.
CB is so 1975. We can do link-local messaging now. Why not link-local video conferencing? Anybody nearby (using cell towers, GPS, or network segment) will appear on your contacts list...


Originally Posted by jwire View Post
(I don't know what other new ideas people are contributing because I've been "generally blocked" from that Maemo site by General Antilles
I have no idea how that would be technically possible. Your IP has been blocked from viewing the site? They can do that?
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GeneralAntilles is offline GeneralAntilles
2008-10-31 , 20:25
Posts: 5,478 | Thanked: 5,222 times | Joined on Jan 2006 @ St. Petersburg, FL
#145
Originally Posted by jwire View Post
Moreover, it seems to me that, given software control over the radios, Nokia could then add some cb-like features. (I don't know what other new ideas people are contributing because I've been "generally blocked" from that Maemo site by General Antilles -- sans the courtesy of explanation; the only innovation-squelcher worse than a busy bureaucrat is an arrogant one!).


You'll have to actually be specific if you want help. Unless you're just interested in whining and don't actually want a solution? Is that it?

If it's the wiki ban, the text of the ban clearly explains the issue.
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Benson is offline Benson
2008-10-31 , 20:25
Posts: 4,930 | Thanked: 2,272 times | Joined on Oct 2007
#146
Originally Posted by jwire View Post
Moreover, it seems to me that, given software control over the radios, Nokia could then add some cb-like features.
Is there some place this would be legal I should know about? In the US, transmitters have to have FCC approval -- unless it's locked down so only official Nokia firmware can alter the transmission characteristics, that's going to rule out SDRs with transmit capabilities. In my understanding, all other "civilised" places have similar regulatory structures, so Nokia wouldn't be able to sell such a thing in any of their main markets.
 
nilchak is offline nilchak
2008-10-31 , 22:17
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#147
Originally Posted by benny1967 View Post
... but I'm really, really pissed by the way they handled the transition to thumb-sized UI-Elements.
I am actually terribly pleased that they implemented the finger friendly UI - only thing is it is not finger friendly enough as yet.

But again this is just me saying aloud my preferences and I, like you, couldn't care less about what others prefer.

Again I am altruistic too, and do try to help out others and understand their viewpoint ...

My point being that this has been hashed out many times already as to what one set of users prefer and what the other set of users prefer. Its this differences which is the main reason for forks in many a (open source) application.

But in this case its upto Nokia to determine what will attract a bigger slice of market - cause ultimately its market driven for Nokia. So I don't think this 'I-like-you-like' discussion will get us anywhere fruitful (except to go the company that sells the "I-like" solution best to each).
 

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SD69 is offline SD69
2008-11-01 , 01:56
Posts: 1,513 | Thanked: 2,248 times | Joined on Mar 2006 @ US
#148
Originally Posted by benny1967 View Post
I had the impression you wanted fullscreen-only applications because that's what all users want, anyway, according to your market research. You named Canola as an example. I can't check right now, I never leave Canola installed on my tablet because its complicated interface drives me nuts, but if I remember correctly, you cannot choose with Canola. It is full screen an full screen only.

Anyway, I don't believe Nokia will offer such things as "default settings" that can be changed. Maybe I'm too pessimistic here, but I'm really, really pissed by the way they handled the transition to thumb-sized UI-Elements. When I got my first 770 with OS2005, things were cool. On the home screen, I had 4 applets. The RSS applet would show roughly twelve headlines at a glance. The contacts applet, which I mainly use as a roaster for online contacts, would show almost all of the people I regularly chat with. And still there's be room for a clock and internet radio.

With "finger-friendly" OS2008, I have four (!!) headlines from the RSS reader and can choose only five contacts for display on my home screen. And that's it then. No room for any more applets. (Same with giant menus, scroll bars that take away space even though I use a stylus etc.)
The value of the device really decreased for me because of this. It's not as good as it was before.
Did Nokia offer a choice? Can I go to the system settings and say "no finger-friendly balderdash, please, I want information"? No. Although I guess it would have been easy as a system-wide setting.
So: No, I don't believe Nokia will do this. I'm pissed, really pissed, and I don't trust them any more on this.
I think canola is full-screen only as a developer choice, and I think there is nothing which currently prevents apps from having selectable display formats. When you're talking home screen, well that is typically tied down in many respects in most devices and comparatively speaking maemo allows a decent range of choices/selections on the home screen. As to global system settings, no they don't have that, but AFAIK it does seem that maemo currently offers a choice to app developers.

It shouldn't be a finger-friendly vs. stylus debate, but an issue of whether it should be possible to have an app with user selectable display formats. I am with you insofar as I am suspicious that Maemo 5 is going to give us a more constrained UI.
 
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benny1967 is offline benny1967
2008-11-01 , 13:10
Posts: 3,790 | Thanked: 5,718 times | Joined on Mar 2006 @ Vienna, Austria
#149
Originally Posted by nilchak View Post
My point being that this has been hashed out many times already as to what one set of users prefer and what the other set of users prefer. Its this differences which is the main reason for forks in many a (open source) application.

But in this case its upto Nokia to determine what will attract a bigger slice of market - cause ultimately its market driven for Nokia. So I don't think this 'I-like-you-like' discussion will get us anywhere fruitful (except to go the company that sells the "I-like" solution best to each).
The only difference is that you can't simply fork OS2008 because of its closed components.

Of course Nokia needs to be market driven. So are other companies who have increasingly interesting offers and don't force me to only read 4 news items at a time. So it's plain wrong to say "the market" wants it. I'm part of this market, I see alternatives and I'm only angry that I'd have to actually buy a whole new device now to get what I already had with OS2005-OS2007.
 
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lcuk is offline lcuk
2008-11-01 , 13:21
Posts: 1,635 | Thanked: 1,816 times | Joined on Apr 2008 @ Manchester, England
#150
Originally Posted by benny1967 View Post
The only difference is that you can't simply fork OS2008 because of its closed components.

Of course Nokia needs to be market driven. So are other companies who have increasingly interesting offers and don't force me to only read 4 news items at a time. So it's plain wrong to say "the market" wants it. I'm part of this market, I see alternatives and I'm only angry that I'd have to actually buy a whole new device now to get what I already had with OS2005-OS2007.
benny,
tell me seriously, whats missing?
Is it the general feeling of the OS< or specific applications contained within?
Why are you not able to carry on using os2007 on your n800?
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