Page 8 of 24 « First 67 8 91018 Last »
Reply
Thread Tools
benny1967's Avatar
benny1967 is offline benny1967
2009-04-12 , 07:57
Posts: 3,790 | Thanked: 5,718 times | Joined on Mar 2006 @ Vienna, Austria
#71
Originally Posted by Capt'n Corrupt View Post
Having said that, let me ask this:
Since the OS is open, and legacy apps will be legacy apps, would you be opposed to having the stylus as an accessory rather than built-into the unit?

In this way, individuals that require or prefer the type of functionality that a stylus allows, will optionally have it. A similar case would be a bluetooth/usb keyboard/mouse.
it's not so much the stylus as a physical accessory. i'm used to buying add-ons each time nokia ruins this device. (like a had to buy a 3rd party case when they decided the N800 needn't be protected.)

the real problem isn't the hardware. it's the software. once you decide you'll only support finger use, you'll need to create a UI that's less powerful. you'll need to re-design existing desktop applications only because of the UI, even if they'd run without any change technically. (look at the preferences-screen of Xchat. i cannot imagine this within a fingerpainting environment.)
what makes the tablets so powerful is that they're so close to a standard GNU/linux desktop system that even GUI applications can run without a lot of change. this is the only reason why i'm using a tablet. i'm afraid this feature will be lost.

so yes, of course i'd happily buy a 3rd party stylus and keep it in my 3rd party case, but i'm really afraid i'll also have to go for a 3rd party operating system then because finger-friendly maemo may be closer to a media player than to a laptop. the operating systems we have at the moment to replace maemo are there, but right now i wouldn't trust any of them for every day use. even if i did: they start now whereas maemo started in 2005. and they have an even smaller user base.

i's feel a lot more comfortable if this thread wasn't so empty:
http://www.internettablettalk.com/fo...ad.php?t=27612
 

The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to benny1967 For This Useful Post:
GeneralAntilles's Avatar
GeneralAntilles is offline GeneralAntilles
2009-04-12 , 08:16
Posts: 5,478 | Thanked: 5,222 times | Joined on Jan 2006 @ St. Petersburg, FL
#72
Originally Posted by benny1967 View Post
what makes the tablets so powerful is that they're so close to a standard GNU/linux desktop system that even GUI applications can run without a lot of change. this is the only reason why i'm using a tablet. i'm afraid this feature will be lost.
For you. None of my day-to-day usage of the tablets involves running desktop applications, and I believe the same is true for the overwhelming majority of tablet owners.

It's a strength of the tablets, but it's hardly the linchpin of the platform. In fact I'd argue that, in many ways, this compatibility is a weakness—much like Windows compatibility was for OS/2.

Besides, what's all the fuss over? Nothing's changing so radically that you wont be able to run your desktop ports. If not having a stylus keyboard is such a huge issue, then that's why the hardware keyboard is there. If that really doesn't work for you, then it's not overwhelmingly difficult to add plugins to h-i-m.
__________________
Ryan Abel
 
attila77 is offline attila77
2009-04-12 , 09:49
Posts: 3,319 | Thanked: 5,610 times | Joined on Aug 2008 @ Finland
#73
Originally Posted by GeneralAntilles View Post
For you. None of my day-to-day usage of the tablets involves running desktop applications, and I believe the same is true for the overwhelming majority of tablet owners.
Please, let's not get into that "I'm more an etalon user that you are" discussion.

For example, the web browser, an archetypical internet tablet aplication is, was and will be a desktop replacement (the failure of WAP demonstrates this clearly) - sites are made for desktop style input, and that is keyboard + mouse (=stylus). While can dance around that with all sorts of zoom and predictive clicking game, the unaided human finger always will be only a surogate input device for it.

If not having a stylus keyboard is such a huge issue, then that's why the hardware keyboard is there. If that really doesn't work for you, then it's not overwhelmingly difficult to add plugins to h-i-m.
We're (or, at least I'm) not talking about stylus keyboards for quite some time now (if fact, if you read back you'll see I never use stylus OSK). It's about stylus, as in high resolution input device to allow for a) precision spatial input -> drawing, writing, sketching and b) navigation and use of complex user interfaces without breaking them up into a million pages.

Canola settings are a personal example for me. It just drives me nuts - it's finger friendly to the point that I can't actually do what I want, with or without stylus. But with media players, at least you have choice. With a web browser, as mentioned above, you don't.
 

The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to attila77 For This Useful Post:
GeneralAntilles's Avatar
GeneralAntilles is offline GeneralAntilles
2009-04-12 , 10:38
Posts: 5,478 | Thanked: 5,222 times | Joined on Jan 2006 @ St. Petersburg, FL
#74
Originally Posted by attila77 View Post
Please, let's not get into that "I'm more an etalon user that you are" discussion.
That wasn't my intention. The post I was quoting was trying to describe desktop compatibility (specifically the ability to use straight desktop ports) as one of the core strengths of the platform, which it is not.

Originally Posted by attila77 View Post
For example, the web browser, an archetypical internet tablet aplication is, was and will be a desktop replacement (the failure of WAP demonstrates this clearly) - sites are made for desktop style input, and that is keyboard + mouse (=stylus). While can dance around that with all sorts of zoom and predictive clicking game, the unaided human finger always will be only a surogate input device for it.
I manage to use the web quite heavily on my device utilizing only my fingers. A well-designed UI (Safari on iPhone OS is a fair example) can provide a very strong browsing experience with finger input.

Originally Posted by attila77 View Post
It's about stylus, as in high resolution input device to allow for a) precision spatial input -> drawing, writing, sketching and b) navigation and use of complex user interfaces without breaking them up into a million pages.
I guess I don't see it. There's a lot of doom and gloom about the end of the platform and a lot of assumptions based on rather limited information. From a technical standpoint, nothing I've seen has limited any the aforementioned use-cases.
__________________
Ryan Abel
 
attila77 is offline attila77
2009-04-12 , 13:03
Posts: 3,319 | Thanked: 5,610 times | Joined on Aug 2008 @ Finland
#75
Originally Posted by GeneralAntilles View Post
That wasn't my intention. The post I was quoting was trying to describe desktop compatibility (specifically the ability to use straight desktop ports) as one of the core strengths of the platform, which it is not.
I does come across to me as one of the core strengths. Maybe not intended or even welcomed by many, but considering the number of apps which are available as near-straight ports or libs, I'd say it is a very defining moment.

I manage to use the web quite heavily on my device utilizing only my fingers. A well-designed UI (Safari on iPhone OS is a fair example) can provide a very strong browsing experience with finger input.
As already stated, if done right, you can use both for whatever purpose, it's just a question of efficiency/ergonomy. One could just as easily argue that with an OMAP3 class hardware, 1024x600 display+stylus and proper OS/browser, you'd not only have a strong or manageable, but *identical* browsing experience as on your desktop.

I wouldn't put your finger-web use of present day NIT for a vote to determine if the overwhelming majority of users use it that way, though

Also, try playing games like pingus or maemosweeper with fingers. Loads of fun

I guess I don't see it. There's a lot of doom and gloom about the end of the platform and a lot of assumptions based on rather limited information.
I didn't use such strong words, and don't think it would be the end of anything. I just think that ditching the stylus altogether is reducing functionality and limiting existing usage patterns for no particular reason other than saying 'look ma, no stylus !'. In this case, less is, well... less.

I seriously wish UI designers gave more thought to hybrid stylus/finger interfaces. But I'll go further - not only UI, but hardware designers, too. The device could detect whether the stylus is IN (=finger mode), or OUT (=mouse mode) and adapt both UI and display sensitivity/parameters accordingly.
 
mullf's Avatar
mullf is offline mullf
2009-04-12 , 13:40
Posts: 610 | Thanked: 391 times | Joined on Feb 2006 @ DC, USA
#76
Originally Posted by GeneralAntilles View Post
A well-designed UI (Safari on iPhone OS is a fair example) can provide a very strong browsing experience with finger input.
If you spend all day zooming in and out so you can click on the correct link/drop-down-menu-item and then see the full page again.



Originally Posted by GeneralAntilles View Post
There's a lot of doom and gloom about the end of the platform and a lot of assumptions based on rather limited information. From a technical standpoint, nothing I've seen has limited any the aforementioned use-cases.
I think people are more concerned about the end of the platform for them. If the tablets no longer meet a person's requirements, how long/whether the tablets survive isn't really their concern anymore.
 

The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to mullf For This Useful Post:
lemmyslender is offline lemmyslender
2009-04-12 , 14:17
Posts: 968 | Thanked: 974 times | Joined on Nov 2008 @ Ohio
#77
I'll readily admit a stylus could be an add-on, IF the ui supports it. Although, I wouldn't buy one, as I already have several. A stylus could easily be included without sacrificing much space.

Hardware keyboards would eliminate some of the issues (providing ALL the new models have one). I still wouldn't use a finger keyboard for any lenghty input, because I wouldn't be able to see enough of what I was typing.

Sitting here, I just noticed that my kids Leapster even has a stylus. A learning device for young children, which should be "finger friendly" has an included stylus. I assume that this is because in testing, they felt they could not design the ui and games to be completely "finger friendly" enough to drop the stylus. This in a case where ease of use and cost are paramount.

Although, I can hope that if the default ui is finger based, it could easily be changed to a hybrid or even further reduced to stylus friendly (maximum info on screen) by changing the theme?
 
allnameswereout's Avatar
allnameswereout is offline allnameswereout
2009-04-12 , 14:34
Posts: 3,397 | Thanked: 1,212 times | Joined on Jul 2008 @ Netherlands
#78
Originally Posted by attila77 View Post
For example, the web browser, an archetypical internet tablet aplication is, was and will be a desktop replacement (the failure of WAP demonstrates this clearly) - sites are made for desktop style input, and that is keyboard + mouse (=stylus). While can dance around that with all sorts of zoom and predictive clicking game, the unaided human finger always will be only a surogate input device for it.
WAP failed; yet RSS succeeded. There are tons of optimalizations for non-desktop browsers. Opera Mobile for example compresses data. Memory footprints of mobile browsers must be low too. The browsers must be optimized for the hardware input (T9, touchscreen, hardware keyboard, stylus). Applications, including browsers, must be optimized for the screen resolution. And even the architecture. Furthermore, there is no multi touch possible with stylus so you can forget zooming in and out easily (which gives the user a reasonable accurate precision good enough for almost all user cases IMO; except something like precision drawing; for that you'd buy a Wacom or use your old stylus optimized OS/device) while if you optimize your application for finger usage you will allow implementing such since it gives the user a clear advantage. You even see layouts optimized for 1) desktop 2) T9 (traditional mobile) 3) finger usage (iPhone). Are you understanding the impact of this? Hint: no stylus optimized web sites exist and they will never exist. That means your browser experience on the end point of web designers will not improve for you!! Good luck and have fun hacking around that while I simply use my fingers to navigate on an iPhone-optimized website. Speaking of, MobileSafari zooms in on an input box when you click on it. Same for text you double click on. Zooming difficult? These are great features indeed.

Something like X Chat can run on a remote computer you log in to. You simply resume your session much like when using screen(1). Or you'd prefer to run an IRC client which is actually optimized for usage on the tablet.

Canola settings are a personal example for me. It just drives me nuts - it's finger friendly to the point that I can't actually do what I want, with or without stylus. But with media players, at least you have choice. With a web browser, as mentioned above, you don't.
Can you give examples what drives you nuts?

On a side note: I do agree that the fact the device runs an X client and X server is a potential strong positive point in some niche cases.

I didn't use such strong words, and don't think it would be the end of anything. I just think that ditching the stylus altogether is reducing functionality and limiting existing usage patterns for no particular reason other than saying 'look ma, no stylus !'. In this case, less is, well... less.
Not really. Usage patterns are limited for a reason because sometimes less is more. You cannot build a car which is good at everything you cannot build an OS or hardware device which is good at everything either. A stylus is a cheap component, but does use space on the device.

Meanwhile, software wise you don't lose any code whatsoever, and you are free to optimize the UI for stylus and run all the desktop apps on the device you want. In fact, I'd bet running XFCe or old Hildon will be just easy using Ubuntu or Mer. However, I believe only a (vocal) minority will opt for this path instead of the default path of finger optimized UI.

I seriously wish UI designers gave more thought to hybrid stylus/finger interfaces. But I'll go further - not only UI, but hardware designers, too. The device could detect whether the stylus is IN (=finger mode), or OUT (=mouse mode) and adapt both UI and display sensitivity/parameters accordingly.
Maemo 4 tried this, and I believe it failed miserably at it but Nokia learned that they have to decide for either or invest a lot of time and energy into a UI which handles both well.
__________________
Goosfraba! All text written by allnameswereout is public domain unless stated otherwise. Thank you for sharing your output!
 
tso's Avatar
tso is offline tso
2009-04-12 , 14:41
Posts: 4,783 | Thanked: 1,253 times | Joined on Aug 2007 @ norway
#79
i would say wap failed because the first version showed up when mobile internet where still metered by connection time, not traffic amounts.

therefor you could not really read anything without draining your wallet, and people backed off it.
 
GeraldKo is offline GeraldKo
2009-04-12 , 15:37
Posts: 1,950 | Thanked: 1,174 times | Joined on Jan 2008 @ Seattle, USA
#80
Question: Is the RX-51's screen going to be more accurate and more sensitive than the N8*0's? If so, what are the technological advances?

(Even if the N900 UI were perfected for finger use, the fact is, the touchscreen itself has to be up to the task. For finger use, the current screen is pathetic compared to Apple's.) (My understanding is that it will still be resistive, not capacitive -- no?)
 
Reply
Page 8 of 24 « First 67 8 91018 Last »

Tags
dismantle, fremantle, fremantle summary, kate alhola, kool-aid, no soup for you, presentation, to sylus or not to stylus

« Previous Thread | Next Thread »

 
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 23:39.

Contact Us - Home - Archive - Top