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2009-05-27
, 11:22
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Posts: 1,671 |
Thanked: 11,478 times |
Joined on Jun 2008
@ Warsaw, Poland
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#92
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Originally Posted by geneven
It's a good discussion really (but may belong in a seperate thread):
That doesn't mean the change gets the support of members of ITT, however. They still want internet tablets, made by Nokia or not.
If there was a device in the future, non-Nokia internet tablet device, running Mer from maemo.org (and probably implementing) the Maemo platform, with a strong following of this mix, would it belong in Devices category on talk.maemo.org?
Personally I think the answer would be that it would. If it was a device that didn't run anything remotely related to maemo.org that might be different - would we have a <insert weird android tablet> forum just because it's an internet tablet?
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As you go on to other communities, remember to build them around politeness, respect, trust and humility. Be wary of poisonous people and deal with them before they end up killing your community.. Seen it happen to too many IRC channels, forums, open source projects.
As you go on to other communities, remember to build them around politeness, respect, trust and humility. Be wary of poisonous people and deal with them before they end up killing your community.. Seen it happen to too many IRC channels, forums, open source projects.
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2009-05-27
, 12:17
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Posts: 2,535 |
Thanked: 6,681 times |
Joined on Mar 2008
@ UK
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#93
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Originally Posted by Stskeeps
Given that Mer is so heavily based on Maemo, has been "blessed" as the best hope for a hacker edition for existing N8x0 devices and is a "maemo.org project"; I'd say "yes".
IIf there was a device in the future, non-Nokia internet tablet device, running Mer from maemo.org (and probably implementing) the Maemo platform, with a strong following of this mix, would it belong in Devices category on talk.maemo.org?
If it was a device that didn't run anything remotely related to maemo.org that might be different - would we have a <insert weird android tablet> forum just because it's an internet tablet?
I would be surprised (and probably delighted) if we could find a single device which carried on in the same vein as the N810 and moved a significant portion of this community to that device en masse. I suspect that everyone's requirements are so subtly different that although they converged on the NITs, they may not so easily converge on another non-Maemo/non-Mer device.
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Andrew Flegg -- mailto:andrew@bleb.org | http://www.bleb.org
Andrew Flegg -- mailto:andrew@bleb.org | http://www.bleb.org
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2009-05-27
, 12:32
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Posts: 5,795 |
Thanked: 3,151 times |
Joined on Feb 2007
@ Agoura Hills Calif
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#94
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"Historically (and I remember this most keenly around the iPhone launch), the general mood of people expressing an opinion was that although the site name was "Internet Tablet Talk", it was specifically referring to Nokia's "Internet Tablet" brand"
You are absolutely right, but that was based on the assumption that Nokia HAD an "Internet Tablet" brand.
Now what Nokia appears to be abandoning that brand, the reasoning shifts. Users who want to buy a new Internet Tablet are forced to look somewhere beyond Nokia. Therefore, it is time for the meaning of "Internet Tablet Talk" to evolve.
You are absolutely right, but that was based on the assumption that Nokia HAD an "Internet Tablet" brand.
Now what Nokia appears to be abandoning that brand, the reasoning shifts. Users who want to buy a new Internet Tablet are forced to look somewhere beyond Nokia. Therefore, it is time for the meaning of "Internet Tablet Talk" to evolve.
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2009-05-27
, 12:50
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Posts: 2,535 |
Thanked: 6,681 times |
Joined on Mar 2008
@ UK
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#95
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Originally Posted by geneven
:-)
The expression would have "hackles" being raised, not "heckles," though heckles are funnier.
The full story seems to me to be that ITT had to die because internet tablets themselves are being phased out by Nokia. So Reggie would support this takeover by maemo.org because it keeps the support of Nokia.
That doesn't mean the change gets the support of members of ITT, however. They still want internet tablets, made by Nokia or not.
But you'd have to ask Reggie.
The democratic way to make the change would have been to have some sort of election on ITT itself, not on maemo.org. Maemo.org's rules about karma are not the problem of ITT members.
And "election" meaning "council election"? It'd seem odd to have an election to represent the maemo.org community to Nokia take place on an - at the time - unaffiliated, third-party, web forum.
As for the "not relevant" bit:
- Since Reggie announced that ITT would become tmo, maemo.org's karma rules are relevant at some level.
- maemo.org's karma rules are used for pretty much two reasons: council elections and - possibly - feeding into device programmes. The latter hasn't been used yet (but was mentioned when karma was first introduced)
Disclaimer: These are personal opinions. They aren't trying to stifle debate; shoot anyone down or manipulate the stock market. Challenging statements != personal attack.
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Andrew Flegg -- mailto:andrew@bleb.org | http://www.bleb.org
Andrew Flegg -- mailto:andrew@bleb.org | http://www.bleb.org
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2009-05-27
, 12:54
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Posts: 2,535 |
Thanked: 6,681 times |
Joined on Mar 2008
@ UK
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#96
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Originally Posted by geneven
Yup (BTW, is there a reason for not using the "quote" markup?)
"Historically (and I remember this most keenly around the iPhone launch), the general mood of people expressing an opinion was that although the site name was "Internet Tablet Talk", it was specifically referring to Nokia's "Internet Tablet" brand"
You are absolutely right, but that was based on the assumption that Nokia HAD an "Internet Tablet" brand.
Now what Nokia appears to be abandoning that brand, the reasoning shifts. Users who want to buy a new Internet Tablet are forced to look somewhere beyond Nokia. Therefore, it is time for the meaning of "Internet Tablet Talk" to evolve.
__________________
Andrew Flegg -- mailto:andrew@bleb.org | http://www.bleb.org
Andrew Flegg -- mailto:andrew@bleb.org | http://www.bleb.org
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2009-05-27
, 12:56
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Posts: 2,853 |
Thanked: 968 times |
Joined on Nov 2005
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#97
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Originally Posted by mullf
Maybe, maybe not, however that's definitely how it reads to me.
I've mentioned to you before that, IMHO, you have issues with your interpersonal skills. I remember in a post maybe 3 or 4 or 5 weeks ago, someone posted to you a nice long post suggesting a book that you might find helpful. He added the book info after editing the post, so I don't know if you saw the longer version of the post with the info about the book. But if you haven't seen it, I'd look it up, and consider checking the book out at your local library (if you haven't already).
By the way, it wasn't a personal attack as much as an optimistic assessment of recent behavior. Maybe you've already started reading the book?
Disclaimer: This post is in no way meant as an attack.
You're the one goading now, maybe it's time to put all this aside, there are more interesting discussions going on...
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2009-05-27
, 13:10
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Posts: 968 |
Thanked: 974 times |
Joined on Nov 2008
@ Ohio
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#98
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Originally Posted by Jaffa
Shouldn't this be part of what the council is facilitating now? "Hopefully" seems to indicate that while you believe it should happen, you are not personally interested in making/helping it happen.
I think you're right. Hopefully the next election will include all members of tmo who have the requisite karma, even if they don't have a maemo.org account. (There's something of an issue if someone has a maemo.org account and a tmo account, and they're not linked. Tricky).
Originally Posted by Jaffa
Yes, communication is the issue. I don't think the anyone would consider it appropriate to discuss discontinuing use of the mailing lists primarily in the forums, while only dropping the occasional comment about it in the mailing lists (where it might get lost amongst other comments). I expect that people on the mailing lists would complain long and loud if that happened. I understand that many of the best people to make the changes were perhaps best contacted via mailing lists. It seems to me (and apparently others) that most of the discussion happened outside of the forum. That seems to be a communication issue.
But the council aren't governing or administering anything either. However, is this solely an example of poor communication; demonstrating that you think the council didn't do a good enough job of advertising the election on ITT at the time?
The elections and the changes to the forum have no causal relationship; so this is what makes me thing you're solely pointing to the communication problems perceived by you & penguinbait (and others)?.
Originally Posted by Jaffa
As a new user who saw a brief mention or two of the upcoming elections, this (mass email) is exactly what I thought would happen. After all when I signed up, I elected to receive emails from administrators. How would that have been considered spam?
If so, I ask again - and I'm trying not to be defensive of this council, the previous, or any of the members - how would you have advertised such things differently?
There is an obvious answer: email everyone's tmo account's email address notifying them about the changes. Perhaps that - as a one time thing - would have been worthwhile? Of course, hindsight is a wonderful thing; and emailing thousands and thousands of people could have been viewed as spam. A tricky balance, and I can't immediately think of any time in the future when it would be as relevant as a communication mechanism.
Other forums I participate in also require you to view certain threads (announcements to the community) when logging in for the first time after the thread has been posted. It doesn't force you to read it, but you can't say you didn't see it.
Originally Posted by Jaffa
I don't think that holds true at all. If it did, it would mean that the roughly half of Americans eligible to vote but didn't were happy with the former presidents policies (not that I want to start anything political)? I don't think that was the case. I do think that the silent majority usually feels their input won't make a difference, so why bother.
I'm snipping this out - largely out of context - but I believe it is important; the silent majority is typically a happy majority.
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My script to backup /home and /opt
Samsung Galaxy S Vibrant, Huawei S7, N900(retired), N800(retired)
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2009-05-27
, 13:17
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Posts: 5,795 |
Thanked: 3,151 times |
Joined on Feb 2007
@ Agoura Hills Calif
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#99
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Originally Posted by Jaffa
I often forget to use the quote markup out of habit; not all sites have that feature.
Yup (BTW, is there a reason for not using the "quote" markup?)
Assuming such a device actually exists! (and becomes popular for a sufficiently large portion of the community here). To do it in general, for a vague and unclear device, seems like putting the cart before the horse - and will result in there being no difference between this and UMPCPortal or Pocketables.net.
Letting the meaning of InternetTabletTalk refer to things that meet the general Internet Tablet specifications (even if none really perfect exist right now) is a lot less draconian than killing the name alltogether, which is effectively what is being done.
There is a HUGE difference between the ITT site and the others you mention. The community of people is different.
So, ITT in my vision, which probably won't come into being, would be a community searching for what it learned that it wanted after being exposed to years of propaganda for Internet Tablets. Surprisingly enough, we want Internet Tablets!
Some developers appeared to fall in love with Maemo while we fell in love with Tablets. That's why there are two communities.
I have no love for Maemo. I don't hate it, but I am much more attracted to the idea of Tablets.
That's why I prefer the ITT name and community to the Maemo name and community.
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2009-05-27
, 13:18
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Posts: 1,436 |
Thanked: 3,144 times |
Joined on Jul 2005
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#100
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Originally Posted by geneven
Yes and no. itT's primary focus was on Nokia's Internet Tablet. If it hadn't been maemo.org's vision of bringing the community to one central place, which I 100% support by the way, itT would eventually have been renamed to maemotalk. Think about it this way, why would Nokia drop the Internet Tablet 'brand' if they intend to only develop Maemo-powered 'internet tablets'?
Now what Nokia appears to be abandoning that brand, the reasoning shifts. Users who want to buy a new Internet Tablet are forced to look somewhere beyond Nokia. Therefore, it is time for the meaning of "Internet Tablet Talk" to evolve.
Anyway back to the topic. All I can say is:
- There is no 'them', there is no 'us.'
- Change can lead to frustration. During these times, we need to be focused/refocused on the goal.
- Frustration leads to discussion which leads to improvements -- great thread btw, thanks Texrat!
- itT's main focus and strength has been the end-users. New Maemo devices mean new users. Let's not forget that this forum was created to help users and share experiences.
- Everyone cannot be fully satisfied. If you have better ideas to improve Talk (tmo) and maemo.org, please don't hesitate to start a thread about it. I myself am all out for suggestions to better Talk and the community.
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Reggie Suplido
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| change, community, engagement, growth, infighting, polarization |
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The full story seems to me to be that ITT had to die because internet tablets themselves are being phased out by Nokia. So Reggie would support this takeover by maemo.org because it keeps the support of Nokia.
That doesn't mean the change gets the support of members of ITT, however. They still want internet tablets, made by Nokia or not.
The democratic way to make the change would have been to have some sort of election on ITT itself, not on maemo.org. Maemo.org's rules about karma are not the problem of ITT members.