Active Topics

 


Page 13 of 15 « First 31112 13 1415
Reply
Thread Tools
jsa is offline jsa
2009-07-08 , 20:24
Posts: 289 | Thanked: 560 times | Joined on May 2009 @ Tampere, Finland
#121
I would be interested to know how much Qt stuff Symbian and Maemo will share. Symbian is expected to get a Nokia contributed UI overhaul in version ^4. That would include the vague "Direct UI" (better come up with a marketing name before it becomes DUI) and the "Orbit" Qt widget set designed for mobile UI:s, Qt Mobility APIs etc. The whole software suite will be rewritten to take advantage of those(see a pattern here?). I expect the new UI to be at least on the designers' table already.

I guess it would be safe to assume a lot of that will find it's way to Maemo too. Can any of you Nokia folks comment on this? It would be interesting to know if / how much the Harmattan UI or app suite will differ from its Symbian counterparts? Will we get a glimpse of it before it is released? Will there be any community input regarding the new UI?

Don't know if the "leaked Harmattan screenshot" was just a mockup, but I expect the coming UI to be very different from what it's now. I'm very excited about this even if it's still far away.
 
ragnar is offline ragnar
2009-07-08 , 20:43
Posts: 631 | Thanked: 1,123 times | Joined on Sep 2005 @ Helsinki
#122
Originally Posted by jsa View Post
I guess it would be safe to assume a lot of that will find it's way to Maemo too. Can any of you Nokia folks comment on this? It would be interesting to know if / how much the Harmattan UI or app suite will differ from its Symbian counterparts? Will we get a glimpse of it before it is released? Will there be any community input regarding the new UI?
I was left thinking. (And maybe this should be moved then to yet another thread.)

Could you - or anybody - can come up with a good (as in realistic and pragmatic instead of idealistic) proposal on how to 'do' community input regarding the new UI?

... What exactly would you input on?
... How would the UI turn out differently?

I'm not trying to be sarcastic here, at all. But it's... the more I think about it the harder it is for me to come up with decent answers.

I'm now discounting the alternative of "just show the whole plans"... And even without discounting that: if we would show the whole plans, and then get n comments on it, ... Would following the democratic majority of the developer community lead to an optimal solution in terms of an UI solution? Wouldn't that be the worst kind of "design by committee" that one could imagine? Do a poll for "Feature X, do solution A or solution B" and vote which solution gets more votes? No?

It's an interesting topic, anyway.
 
Jaffa's Avatar
Jaffa is offline Jaffa
2009-07-08 , 21:21
Posts: 2,535 | Thanked: 6,681 times | Joined on Mar 2008 @ UK
#123
Originally Posted by ragnar View Post
Could you - or anybody - can come up with a good (as in realistic and pragmatic instead of idealistic) proposal on how to 'do' community input regarding the new UI? [...] Would following the democratic majority of the developer community lead to an optimal solution in terms of an UI solution?
I don't know about the UI; but surely an exact same argument can be given for an API (developers use APIs, users use UIs).

And we've already seen what happens with Hildon when well intentioned developers go away for 18 months and then come back with a beta which has a practically fixed API, which lots of developers immediately start finding inconsistencies, edge cases, over-zealous specialisms vs. over generalisations.

Wouldn't that be the worst kind of "design by committee" that one could imagine?
Isn't this just traditional anti-open source FUD, but applied to the UI? Just because someone does something to the code base of an open source project, makes a suggestion on a document, comments on a proposed API/UI - doesn't mean the project leadership has to take it. However, it'd be arrogant in the extreme for anyone to claim that it's impossible that any form of external input from different viewpoints couldn't give some insight or comment which would improve the overall deliverable.

It's an interesting topic, anyway.
Indeed. The only valid answer I can see is the one we've heard before: "exposing this information for external comment from the community will reveal too much of our future plans".

This is a fine answer. But, of course, there's then no hint of roadmaps, design principles (not in the UX sense) or architecture plans on which the community can contribute. So, no contributions means the cycle continues and products which could've had free consultancy services from an empassioned expert community are shipped in a sub-optimal state[1]

Cheers,

Andrew

[1] They may be good devices. They may be excellent. But, by definition, if there's even one good idea out there which wasn't solicited, they're sub-optimal.
__________________
Andrew Flegg -- mailto:andrew@bleb.org | http://www.bleb.org
 

The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Jaffa For This Useful Post:
ragnar is offline ragnar
2009-07-08 , 21:35
Posts: 631 | Thanked: 1,123 times | Joined on Sep 2005 @ Helsinki
#124
Originally Posted by Jaffa View Post
Isn't this just traditional anti-open source FUD, but applied to the UI? Just because someone does something to the code base of an open source project, makes a suggestion on a document, comments on a proposed API/UI - doesn't mean the project leadership has to take it. However, it'd be arrogant in the extreme for anyone to claim that it's impossible that any form of external input from different viewpoints couldn't give some insight or comment which would improve the overall deliverable.

Indeed. The only valid answer I can see is the one we've heard before: "exposing this information for external comment from the community will reveal too much of our future plans".
Yes, I think we mostly agree on the problematics of this issue.

I think the problem with API's etc. is real, but then again, in the long run this will be an iterative process. If something isn't in the first release, we can add it to the next release

It's just hard to me to think of good ways to get community input for the specific issue of UI.

Generally companies... Ok, let's focus even more: generally UI's are not revealed in advance because of competitive reasons. If we would have shown the Maemo 5 UI plans at the time they were ready for the first time, any smart competitor would have not commented anything on them, picked up on the good ideas, disregarded others and probably even come out with their own device before Nokia. Then end consumers - who don't know and care about the process of how things get done - would be just left confused. Showing our own cards is a very basic problem, and I hope everybody realizes that. We will be the first company out with the device with the Maemo 5 UI. If you wouldn't believe your UI is an competitive advantage and therefore don't care about that fact, then we can all go home already.

So, either you hold your cards really close to your chest, or you then do the complete opposite, and do like Mozilla, and open up everything all the time, right from the start. If Nokia = Maemo and nothing more, and if Nokia could crank devices out faster than any competitor, then perhaps there would be more options. But since Nokia > just Maemo, even Maemo does not work in a bubble. Revealing some parts of Maemo UI would reveal ... elements of "Nokia UI" - see that however you want.

-
Yes, members of the community could then give "free input", probably, but "free" here isn't truly free - it is with a rather large cost.
 

The Following User Says Thank You to ragnar For This Useful Post:
Jaffa's Avatar
Jaffa is offline Jaffa
2009-07-08 , 21:47
Posts: 2,535 | Thanked: 6,681 times | Joined on Mar 2008 @ UK
#125
Originally Posted by ragnar View Post
I think the problem with API's etc. is real, but then again, in the long run this will be an iterative process. If something isn't in the first release, we can add it to the next release
Point taken; except once an API's in place it should be kept in place for backwards compatibility.

It's just hard to me to think of good ways to get community input for the specific issue of UI.
Iterating a UI is probably harder (I dunno, great UIs are beyond me: I'll just implement what someone gives me). Perhaps it'd be worth a retrospective on how community input (whether directly, from marketing or via seeing applications on the platform) has shaped the current UI vision.

If we would have shown the Maemo 5 UI plans at the time they were ready for the first time, any smart competitor would have not commented anything on them, picked up on the good ideas, disregarded others and probably even come out with their own device before Nokia.
Assuming said competitor could build hardware and software to a spec from a few screenshots/HIG docs/videos, to a high quality (still gotta get those good reviews) and through a reliable distribution mechanism.

I'd be fascinated to know which of Nokia's competitors you think could do that, cos I'll probably go and buy a device from them; even if they haven't got the mind-blowingly excellent Maemo 5 UI ;-)

Besides, a counterpoint (and Nokia do things Nokia's way, so this is fairly off-topic), the first two things that Palm showed off with the Pre were the device and the UI.

The hardware was a bit meh (OMAP3, touchscreen, slider, yawn). But the software impressed people.

We will be the first company out with the device with the Maemo 5 UI. If you wouldn't believe your UI is an competitive advantage and therefore don't care about that fact, then we can all go home already.
If you honestly believe that the Maemo 5 UI will give Nokia's Maemo devices a competitive edge in the world of Android, iPhone and webOS; I look forward to it! But perhaps the UI will be too constrained by previous technical decisions (at least one advantage of a complete move to Qt: the UI can be re-engineered entirely).

And, the big success from a UI point of view is how easily developers can produce consistent applications with its API. And here, Maemo 5's Hildon seems to be a long stream of cock ups (don't use stock icons or labels: they won't fit in a dialogue box).

Again, here, Qt can introduce some sanity as the approach there (to date, at least) has been to try and minimise accidental complexity. Redesigning a UI for a mobile device is essential complexity: arbitrarily introducing new API for project expediency is accidental complexity which could've been avoided.

Yes, members of the community could then give "free input", probably, but "free" here isn't truly free - it is with a rather large cost.
"Free" compared with other forms of external, expert, consultancy.
__________________
Andrew Flegg -- mailto:andrew@bleb.org | http://www.bleb.org
 

The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Jaffa For This Useful Post:
ragnar is offline ragnar
2009-07-08 , 22:00
Posts: 631 | Thanked: 1,123 times | Joined on Sep 2005 @ Helsinki
#126
Originally Posted by Jaffa View Post
I'd be fascinated to know which of Nokia's competitors you think could do that, cos I'll probably go and buy a device from them; even if they haven't got the mind-blowingly excellent Maemo 5 UI ;-)
Well, I don't want to name names directly, but there are some well-known companies originating from Asia, for instance.

Originally Posted by Jaffa View Post
Besides, a counterpoint (and Nokia do things Nokia's way, so this is fairly off-topic), the first two things that Palm showed off with the Pre were the device and the UI. The hardware was a bit meh (OMAP3, touchscreen, slider, yawn). But the software impressed people.
And naturally that is the idea with Maemo 5 also. Showing the device and the UI at the same time.

That is why the Beta SDK doesn't show the full UI.

Originally Posted by Jaffa View Post
"Free" compared with other forms of external, expert, consultancy.
Well, yes, external consultancy costs money. But it can also offer consistency, with testing methodology, target user gathering, non-biased testers, consistent reporting metrics etc. etc. So they're not really comparative. You wouldn't replace one with the other.
 

The Following User Says Thank You to ragnar For This Useful Post:
qole's Avatar
qole is offline qole
2009-07-08 , 22:20
Moderator | Posts: 7,109 | Thanked: 8,820 times | Joined on Oct 2007 @ Vancouver, BC, Canada
#127
ragnar & Jaffa:

I'm definitely going to try to distill some of this for my dialog with Ari Jaaksi at the Summit; the tension that ragnar is discussing (competitive advantage vs. openness) is one of the core issues of corporate / community interaction.

EDIT: I did some distillation in a post in that thread. If you want to continue your discussion over there (or just correct my misreadings of your arguments), you're welcome to!
__________________
qole.org --- twitter --- Easy Debian wiki page
Please don't send me a private message, post to the appropriate thread.
Thank you all for your donations!
Last edited by qole; 2009-07-08 at 22:43.
 

The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to qole For This Useful Post:
jsa is offline jsa
2009-07-08 , 22:21
Posts: 289 | Thanked: 560 times | Joined on May 2009 @ Tampere, Finland
#128
Originally Posted by ragnar View Post
Could you - or anybody - can come up with a good (as in realistic and pragmatic instead of idealistic) proposal on how to 'do' community input regarding the new UI?

...

I'm not trying to be sarcastic here, at all. But it's... the more I think about it the harder it is for me to come up with decent answers.
I was mostly asking out of curiosity, would be nice to know what's going on behind the scenes. I want to see a magnificient UI, and not be "meh" on the big day. I guess I'll just have to trust you guys.

To your question, I have absolutely no idea how to do it. :/ Especially considering that Maemo is going mainstream, and this community doesn't represent mainstream by any stretch of imagination.
 
VDVsx's Avatar
VDVsx is offline VDVsx
2009-07-09 , 00:41
Posts: 1,070 | Thanked: 1,604 times | Joined on Sep 2008 @ Helsinki
#129
Originally Posted by ragnar View Post
Well, I don't want to name names directly, but there are some well-known companies originating from Asia, for instance.
One of those almost rip-off everything that Nokia put in the market, even the name was partially ripped-off
__________________
Valério Valério
www.valeriovalerio.org
 
nilchak is offline nilchak
2009-07-09 , 02:24
Posts: 1,097 | Thanked: 650 times | Joined on Nov 2007
#130
Not only the one staring witl N and a ripoff of Nokia name, but also the one with H which is a big player now. They are quite capable of putting together a nice finger-friendly interfaces over older even more clunkier OS's like WM and I sense, even over Android.
 
Reply
Page 13 of 15 « First 31112 13 1415

« Previous Thread | Next Thread »

 
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 21:31.

Contact Us - Home - Archive - Top