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fms is offline fms
2009-08-17 , 12:14
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#91
Originally Posted by Jaffa View Post
Of course, once we do entice lots and lots of developers to Maemo, we need to make sure the user experience is there for finding stuff. There's an interesting down side exposed in The 35 Best iPhone Apps of the Year (so far):
This is all meaningless unless you have got a large enough base of consumers ready to buy stuff. Maemo does not have such a base at the moment and I do not see it getting such a customer base in the closest future. If I am missing something in my predictions, please, correct me. Just like Agent Mulder, I would like to believe.

As to the fabled 50k iPhone applications, most of them are probably garbage, making commercial iPhone development kind of a lottery: your chances of reaching commercial success selling iPhone apps are random and pretty low. So, the "strategy" there is to create scores of small silly apps and sell them for $1, with no support implied. This is kind of like buying a bunch of cheap lottery tickets hoping that one of them will win. The similar pattern can be observed in pre-iPhone app stores like Handango. Believe me, this pattern has nothing to do with how an average developer would like to market his applications.

PS: I know how saliva inducing the idea of competing with iPhone is, but if I were to amuse myself with various "Maemo business strategies", I would start with more modest targets:

1. Getting support for traditional MIDP Java applications (zillions available on the market right now) in such a way that MIDP apps written for different screen sizes run well on Maemo (with intelligent scaling) and the controls are tolerable.

2. Figuring out ways for Maemo to uproot RIM in North American markets. This will require implementing the same key business-oriented functionality of RIM but better. RIM isn't very good at software, so this should not be as difficult as competing with Apple.

3. Taking on Windows Mobile and possibly Android.

Can we finally leave "why Maemo is not an iPhone" stuff to the few diehard iPhone owners here and move on to something more constructive?
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andrewfblack is offline andrewfblack
2009-08-17 , 12:58
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#92
Originally Posted by zerojay View Post
I thought Maemo and its users pride themselves on having freedom? Having an app store means you must lock down at least part of the OS so that you couldn't just send over the files installed or the installation package.

I'm all for encouraging people to develop for Maemo (and I always have been), but trying to get iPhone developers on Maemo is the *wrong* choice. They're all about the cash and nothing but... and when they see there's no restrictions and very small installed base in comparison, they'll pass.

We need to get more of the open source community into developing for Maemo. We need to convince them that a Maemo device is what they want to have in their pocket for Linux on the go. We need to convince them that we have a solid development platform with plenty of like-minded developers willing to help.

If Maemo went the way of the iPhone... locked down, 99 cent fart apps, proprietary apps for accessing it... if even one file/folder on my Maemo device would be locked and inaccessable or have some sort of DRM, I would head to Finland and pull the plug on the entire Maemo project myself if I could.

I would much rather kill it and remember it free and open than see the shackles and chains start enclosing around it.

Maemo is something to give to the world, free and open to one and all.
umm your nokia device isn't 100% open there have always been parts drivers mostly that are not open source.
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zerojay is offline zerojay
2009-08-17 , 13:31
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#93
Originally Posted by andrewfblack View Post
umm your nokia device isn't 100% open there have always been parts drivers mostly that are not open source.
Yes, I know, but most of those closed source parts are stuff that either can't be opened or the work hasn't been done to do so. More and more of the closed pieces are being released as open source.

Also, those closed source pieces weren't restricting what I was doing with the tablet which was the entire point I was making there.
 
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Jaffa is offline Jaffa
2009-08-17 , 15:52
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#94
Originally Posted by fms View Post
This is all meaningless unless you have got a large enough base of consumers ready to buy stuff. Maemo does not have such a base at the moment and I do not see it getting such a customer base in the closest future.
I believe that (from what we've seen) RX-51 will ship more devices than any other prior mobile device: increasingly mainstream user interface and consumers can understand "phone" better than "Internet tablet".
PS: I know how saliva inducing the idea of competing with iPhone is, but if I were to amuse myself with various "Maemo business strategies", I would start with more modest targets:
You're replying to my post, so I'm going to respond as if you were talking to me. I'm under no illusions - Maemo isn't going to compete with the iPhone in the short- or medium-term. If we're lucky we'll get into that second tier with Android and webOS.

I read the subject as "How can we encourage [prospective] iPhone developers to develop on Maemo?". Would this thread make you happier if it was "How can we encourage Android developers to develop on Maemo?" It's still a more developer-successful platform (based on number of apps, ease of getting started and out-of-the-box power of the development environment) than Maemo.

1. Getting support for traditional MIDP Java applications (zillions available on the market right now) in such a way that MIDP apps written for different screen sizes run well on Maemo (with intelligent scaling) and the controls are tolerable.
For someone who rails against Java so much, it's odd to see it put at priority #1 on your list; especially since the #1 smartphone platform (Blackberry) uses a different API to MIDP.

Can we finally leave "why Maemo is not an iPhone" stuff to the few diehard iPhone owners here and move on to something more constructive?
This thread was constructive until people started going off in four separate tangents:
  • Denial: The iPhone isn't successful. It's full of iFart apps. Pfft (no pun intended)
  • Missing the point: iPhone developers are never to going to switch. Maemo has open source developers. They're fine.
  • Political stance: Attracting the type of developer the iPhone has would require us to use DRM and the moment that's on my Nokia, Maemo is dead.
  • Missing the point (2): You can't compete with the iPhone. Shut up. You're being stupid. You should be asking how we can encourage XXX developers to develop on Maemo (where XXX could, say, equal MIDP)
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ysss is offline ysss
2009-08-17 , 17:50
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#95
Originally Posted by fms View Post
As to the fabled 50k iPhone applications, most of them are probably garbage, making commercial iPhone development kind of a lottery: your chances of reaching commercial success selling iPhone apps are random and pretty low. So, the "strategy" there is to create scores of small silly apps and sell them for $1, with no support implied. This is kind of like buying a bunch of cheap lottery tickets hoping that one of them will win. The similar pattern can be observed in pre-iPhone app stores like Handango. Believe me, this pattern has nothing to do with how an average developer would like to market his applications.
So how does the 'average developer' would like to market his applications anyway?
( Slowly? To a smaller audience? -- sorry, jk )

I think the key to AppStore is simply economy of scale. You tap into that, then you unleash a natural force that -everyone- can benefit from. The result is greater than the sum of its parts.

AppStore's commission is a flat 30% whereas Handango starts at 50% if your sales is below $250k. You only get the discount to make their commission at 30% on your sales above $1M.

AppStore's approximate number of users is probably in the 10M range. Considering they've sold above 40M devices (both iphone and touch). Handango, I'm not sure, but I'm guessing much lower than that judging by the unit prices.

Bejeweled 2
AppStore: $2.99
Handango: $9.99

Encyclopedia Britannica World Traveller:
AppStore: $7.99
Handango: $19.99

Pocket Informant (PIM):
AppStore: $12.99
Handango: $29.99

Notice any trends?

Can we finally leave "why Maemo is not an iPhone" stuff to the few diehard iPhone owners here and move on to something more constructive?
It's kind of hard to leave the comparison to iPhone or its ecosystem when it's in the thread title.
 

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fms is offline fms
2009-08-17 , 18:53
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#96
Originally Posted by Jaffa View Post
I believe that (from what we've seen) RX-51 will ship more devices than any other prior mobile device: increasingly mainstream user interface and consumers can understand "phone" better than "Internet tablet".
This is pretty strong statement. Have you got any actual data that would confirm it? Could you at least provide the reasoning behind your belief? For comparison, let me provide my resoning of why Maemophone will not be such a huge hit:

1) There is no "buzz" on the Net that preceded iPhone, GooglePhone, and Palm Pre. Few people even know that the next Nokia tablet will be a phone. Hell, not a lot of people know what Nokia Internet Tablet is.
2) As we all know by now, Fremantle UI is transitional. It will be phased out in favor of Qt in the next device.
3) You have probably seen the screenshots of the current Fremantle UI. It pretty much looks like an attempt to simulate S60 with Gtk+, with some touch-based improvements thrown in. Do you really think anyone can be impressed with this?

Maemo isn't going to compete with the iPhone in the short- or medium-term. If we're lucky we'll get into that second tier with Android and webOS.
Out of curiosity, by the "second tier", do you mean the "second tier iPhone", as opposed to "first tier iPhone" from Apple? Because once you remove the unhealthy obsession with iPhone from this equation, all these devices become what they are - different cell phones with slightly different (but overlapping) marketing niches.

Would this thread make you happier if it was "How can we encourage Android developers to develop on Maemo?" It's still a more developer-successful platform (based on number of apps, ease of getting started and out-of-the-box power of the development environment) than Maemo.
Not sure why you think that the thread is somehow making me "unhappy", but if you state your question as above, I have got an instant answer for you: All you need to do to encourage Android development on Maemo is to integrate Dalvik and Android frameworks into Maemo desktop environment, so that Android apps run "natively" inside Maemo. This should not be such a difficult task, in fact it will only be a little more difficult than providing a decent MIDP runtime.

For someone who rails against Java so much, it's odd to see it put at priority #1 on your list; especially since the #1 smartphone platform (Blackberry) uses a different API to MIDP.
That, Jaffa, is because I never let my personal preferences affect my judgment. In the scope of our current discussion, who cares if Java is a bloated rotting corpse that should have never been brought to life in the first place? All we should care about is the size of developer base. MIDP has got a hell of developer base and hundred of applications written, so it is definitely worth supporting in Maemo.

This thread was constructive until people started going off in four separate tangents:
Sorry, but you can't have a constructive thread titled "How can we encourage iPhone developers to develop on Maemo". You just cannot, ok? It is like "How can we encourage BMW owners sell their BMWs and buy Rovers instead". It's not that Rover is such bad a car, but... you know...
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fms is offline fms
2009-08-17 , 18:59
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#97
Originally Posted by ysss View Post
So how does the 'average developer' would like to market his applications anyway?
As a developer, I would like to present my applications to as many people as possible, with priority given to people who show interest in the area served by my applications. With 50000 applications, this is nearly impossible to do, although there are few ways in which you can attempt this.

I think the key to AppStore is simply economy of scale. You tap into that, then you unleash a natural force that -everyone- can benefit from. The result is greater than the sum of its parts.
Maybe it is economy of scale for Apple or someone else. For a developer like me, it is just a pointless mess.

AppStore's commission is a flat 30% whereas Handango starts at 50% if your sales is below $250k. You only get the discount to make their commission at 30% on your sales above $1M.
My CC processing company takes ~12%. So, I am not sure why I would pay 30% or 50% to have my app included into the same bag with 50k other apps, where only the top apps are visible to users.

AppStore's approximate number of users is probably in the 10M range. Considering they've sold above 40M devices (both iphone and touch). Handango, I'm not sure, but I'm guessing much lower than that judging by the unit prices.
This is of no importance if your app is not being presented to these users.

[Comparison of AppStore with Handango skipped: as a developer, I do not see the point in using either, see above for explanation]
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ysss is offline ysss
2009-08-17 , 19:25
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#98
Originally Posted by fms View Post
As a developer, I would like to present my applications to as many people as possible, with priority given to people who show interest in the area served by my applications. With 50000 applications, this is nearly impossible to do, although there are few ways in which you can attempt this.
Would you mind to tell me your method to showcase your app to this 50k select clientele and how much that costs you, in approximate relation % to your sales?
(So we can make a quick comparison to the quoted "flat 30% cost" of AppStore)

Maybe it is economy of scale for Apple or someone else. For a developer like me, it is just a pointless mess.

My CC processing company takes ~12%. So, I am not sure why I would pay 30% or 50% to have my app included into the same bag with 50k other apps, where only the top apps are visible to users.
I think you've just lowered Apple's number by 12%. Credit card processing fees is already included in their 30% flat rate. So, for the remaining 18% of your revenue, Apple provides application hosting, delivery (with a mobile client to boot), (select) marketing and order processing which integrates directly to your IDE.

On top of this, you can still work on your own marketing from a website somewhere and let them do the hosting and delivery so you don't have to pay for the transport bandwidth.

This is of no importance if your app is not being presented to these users.

[Comparison of AppStore with Handango skipped: as a developer, I do not see the point in using either, see above for explanation]
Yes, I'm very interested in your methods. Awaiting your more detailed explanations..

PS: 12% seems EXTREMELY high for cc processing fees. I think most large retailers gets charged less than 3%. This may yet be another example of economy of scale, or lack thereof.
Last edited by ysss; 2009-08-17 at 19:27.
 
fms is offline fms
2009-08-17 , 20:16
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#99
Originally Posted by ysss View Post
Would you mind to tell me your method to showcase your app to this 50k select clientele and how much that costs you, in approximate relation % to your sales?
I have got my own website and try to get my apps reviewed by relevant blogs and news sites. it also helps to send updates info to news sites. Costs me nothing.

So we can make a quick comparison to the quoted "flat 30% cost" of AppStore)
I have done it for you - it is 12% vs 30%. Apple does nothing to present my app to users. it simply throws it into the sam bag with other apps. This does not justify extra 18%. And no, I am not interested in "content delivery and order processing from IDE". I can do both via a website.

Yes, I'm very interested in your methods. Awaiting your more detailed explanations..
May I inquire about the nature of your interest? Are you also a software developer? What commercial software have you developed?

PS: 12% seems EXTREMELY high for cc processing fees. I think most large retailers gets charged less than 3%. This may yet be another example of economy of scale, or lack thereof.
I would like to know of a service that takes lower percentage while providing order placement and processing interface on the web. If you know of such a company, do not hesitate to tell.
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2009-08-17 , 20:34
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#100
Originally Posted by fms View Post
This is pretty strong statement. Have you got any actual data that would confirm it?
Sorry, it was a typo - which I just spotted before reading your reply. Shows that even careful re-reading and previewing of a post doesn't prevent mistakes.

It should have been:

I believe that (from what we've seen) RX-51 will ship more devices than any other prior Maemo device[...]
Sorry for the confusion.
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