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solarion is offline solarion
2009-10-20 , 16:43
Posts: 117 | Thanked: 32 times | Joined on Oct 2009 @ USA
#61
Originally Posted by javispedro View Post
Ok then. Where's the data you provided for that? Saying "i can see PDFs better in eeePC 901" does not prove it because it has a bigger screen (and a lower DPI!).
Umm, I provided a screenshot? I provided glyph sizes? I've done most of what I can think of atm.

(and the "lower DPI" directly contradicts the claim you made when you brought in the DPI argument,. which was that I can't view full page PDF on a lower-DPI device, i.e. the EEE)

In fact, I think there's no way to argue this at all. Since it all depends on one's eyesight.
You're not arguing, you're disputing. Bring facts to back up your assertions, and you'll be arguing.

The bigger question is whether I'm an anomaly (see the comments above on this page), and I can't answer that question. It's quite possible that others wouldn't be able to notice enough of a difference to warrant paying whatever the difference in price is (if, indeed, there is a "noticeable" (i.e. one that'll make the customer think again) difference).
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javispedro is offline javispedro
2009-10-20 , 17:12
Posts: 2,355 | Thanked: 5,249 times | Joined on Jan 2009 @ Barcelona
#62
(Sorry for editing the message while you were replying, I'm not going to do that again).
Originally Posted by solarion View Post
Umm, I provided a screenshot? I provided glyph sizes? I've done most of what I can think of atm.
And what does a screenshot prove? Other than rendering with higher DPI results in higher font quality, which is common sense. What does this have to do with eyesight?
Originally Posted by solarion View Post
(and the "lower DPI" directly contradicts the claim you made when you brought in the DPI argument,. which was that I can't view full page PDF on a lower-DPI device, i.e. the EEE)
You're exaggerating (note I only mentioned smudginess, not that "you couldn't read"). But I think I'm finally starting to understand what you mean with "smudginess".

Please note DPI means two things here. A screen has a "real" DPI, basically "#pixels/#inchs". A font rendered also has a DPI setting, which instructs it how many pixels tall a X pt font will be. The real DPI of your eeePC 901 is lower than the N810. The font renderer DPI (let's call it "Evince's zoom") is higher in your 1024 screenshot than your 800 one.

The bigger question is whether I'm an anomaly
Sorry, but I have to say yes. You think the smudginess you see can be fixed by adding more pixels. Can you read a 8pt at the default 96dpi setting in the tablet? I hardly can.
Now try the same experiment on your eeePC.
 

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attila77 is offline attila77
2009-10-20 , 17:33
Posts: 3,319 | Thanked: 5,610 times | Joined on Aug 2008 @ Finland
#63
Without obligations, just had my macro stuff on my cam. If you thought the first image shows a stylus in front of some text, you were wrong - it's a pin and a N900 (the second image gives the pin away doesn't it ? ). For our US friends, the euro coin is in size halfway between a nickel and a quarter.
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solarion's Avatar
solarion is offline solarion
2009-10-20 , 18:36
Posts: 117 | Thanked: 32 times | Joined on Oct 2009 @ USA
#64
Originally Posted by javispedro View Post
(Sorry for editing the message while you were replying, I'm not going to do that again).
And what does a screenshot prove?
That the same page rendered at 1024x600 works better than at 800x480. I believe you agreed with this assessment.

[/quote]
Other than rendering with higher DPI results in higher font quality, which is common sense.[/quote]
DPI is a red herring at the moment. We're not talking Inches, we're talking Pixels. We're rendering a page of a PDF at one res vs another.

What does this have to do with eyesight?
Nothing; you're brining eyesight into it. It's your assertion that I can't be seeing what I'm seeing.

Please note DPI means two things here. A screen has a "real" DPI, basically "#pixels/#inchs". A font rendered also has a DPI setting, which instructs it how many pixels tall a X pt font will be.
The real DPI of your eeePC 901 is lower than the N810.
Yes.

The font renderer DPI (let's call it "Evince's zoom") is higher in your 1024 screenshot than your 800 one.
Yes. This is a fundamental problem of rendering a continuous thing to a discrete system.

Sorry, but I have to say yes.
Right, then we agree that rendering the same text with more pixels will get you a better result. Yay!

You think the smudginess you see can be fixed by adding more pixels.
Yes, I think we agree that rendering the same text at higher res (i.e. higher pixels per glyph) would generally render the text clearer.

Can you read a 8pt at the default 96dpi setting in the tablet? I hardly can.
Yes. I can, at approximately 2 feet from my eyes. (Checked on the n810 with terminal set to 8pt). 6pt is possible at shorter range (1 foot).

Now try the same experiment on your eeePC.
The fonts on my eee are at 6pt, and I read them with the eee on my lap (approx 3-4 ft).
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solarion is offline solarion
2009-10-20 , 18:40
Posts: 117 | Thanked: 32 times | Joined on Oct 2009 @ USA
#65
Originally Posted by attila77 View Post
Without obligations, just had my macro stuff on my cam. If you thought the first image shows a stylus in front of some text, you were wrong - it's a pin and a N900 (the second image gives the pin away doesn't it ? ). For our US friends, the euro coin is in size halfway between a nickel and a quarter.
Interesting. Thanks for the post! (Interesting to see how it renders glyphs into 2-4 pixels!)

Perhaps I could do the same with my camera at home (isn't very fancy, sadly)
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solarion is offline solarion
2009-10-20 , 18:41
Posts: 117 | Thanked: 32 times | Joined on Oct 2009 @ USA
#66
(note that at low pt, you get smudginess now that you're rendering a glyph into just a couple of px! It's not fast 'cause you have to actively think more about what the glyph is)
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solarion is offline solarion
2009-10-20 , 18:43
Posts: 117 | Thanked: 32 times | Joined on Oct 2009 @ USA
#67
(also, according to "appearance properties," my eee is set at 96dpi for font rendering)

The font rendering system has a non-trivial contribution here; it's entirely possible that more clever rendering could make a lower-res screen much more usable for me.
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ysss is offline ysss
2009-10-20 , 18:47
Posts: 4,384 | Thanked: 5,524 times | Joined on Jul 2007 @ ˙ǝɹǝɥʍou
#68
Solarion, please read this post... 2 pages ago:

http://talk.maemo.org/showpost.php?p...6&postcount=48

Ummm I don't think ANYONE here questions the fact that higher resolution provides more detail and clarity when rendering a document (PDF in your specific case).

The only concern is applying the high resolution display to a such small physical screen area that it's not practical anymore. That the benefit is lost due to other bottlenecks (your frickin eyes) meanwhile it puts unnecessary burden to the system, cost and whatever else.

Please reread all the previous posts with this fact in mind and I think we'll be on the same page.
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solarion is offline solarion
2009-10-20 , 19:18
Posts: 117 | Thanked: 32 times | Joined on Oct 2009 @ USA
#69
Right, so what are we fighting about then? Are you telling me I'm not seeing what I'm seeing?
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attila77 is offline attila77
2009-10-20 , 21:30
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#70
Originally Posted by solarion View Post
Right, so what are we fighting about then? Are you telling me I'm not seeing what I'm seeing?
It's the other way round. We're the ones not seeing !

Perhaps I could do the same with my camera at home (isn't very fancy, sadly)
The images were made with a Nikon 50mm f/1.8 lens (literally the cheapest Nikon lens ever) and an ancient Nikon D70, so nothing particularly fancy (more like clunky )
 
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