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2009-10-29
, 12:40
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Posts: 177 |
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Joined on Jan 2008
@ Espoo, Finland
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#282
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Originally Posted by christexaport
Seriously, comparing Google's offerings to WalMart might be just a tad bad comparison
That's not the point. The point is just like WalMart killed grocery in the South. We used to have Winn Dixie, Minyard's, Jewel T, Albertson's, and many other competitors in the DFW area, and now its just WalMart, Kroger, or Tom Thumb, unless you can afford Whole Foods and Central Market. There are less choices, bad produce quality at WalMart, meat prices and quality are nothing like Winn Dixie, etc.
Still, sure, your point is valid, it'd be nice to have more options for most things in life. But the fact remains that the companies with the best products seem to survice. Your original rant suggested very strongly that you believe this to be a ploy to kill competition and then start charging for services. That sounded ridiculous. This latest post was pretty balanced and yes, sorry about your good grocery store. It will live happy ever after with the drive-through cinemas and betamax VCRs.
Originally Posted by christexaport
Aww, how sweet. The Nokia love on this forum would make Nokia bosses very happy. In the past few years, Nokia's corporate actions haven't won them many admirers here in the home country among the general public or their own employees. Nice to know they're still the good guys to some people and you consider them to respect your privacy. They're very interested in privacy, you know, even pushed through a law about it here... (http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Leg.../1135241264898)
I enjoy my privacy, and Google isn't big on respecting it. Nokia is, but that's not the point.
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2009-10-29
, 13:14
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Posts: 850 |
Thanked: 626 times |
Joined on Sep 2009
@ Vienna, Austria
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#283
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Originally Posted by BatPenguin
actually, i think it's pretty spot-on.
Seriously, comparing Google's offerings to WalMart might be just a tad bad comparison
just like wal-mart, google is trying to pull the floor from underneath it's competitors by making "unbeatable" offerings. wal mart does it by economy of scale, google has it even easier because they get their revenues through something else alltogether (just adding to that with yet another ad-based service).
and this process will hurt product quality and diversity in the long run, just like it happened with _every_monopoly_ the world has seen so far. as soon as the monopoly is established, the company in control can start to decrease quality to maximize profits, because the customers have no choice any longer and are forced to accept that.
I'm sure google navigation misses many of the features Garmin or TomTom offer with their devices, but people will just accept the loss of these features, because google is "free". soon, other companies will stop offering additional features and give away a similarly dumbed down navigation. -> quality loss.
take internet search for example - google has the monopoly there for some time now, and search result quality has decreased significantly during the last 5 years or so. more advertisements, more sponsored links.
(what about them anti-trust laws in the states anyways? no one considering filing suit?)
In the past few years, Nokia's corporate actions haven't won them many admirers here in the home country among the general public or their own employees.
edit:
by the way, that link you posted was about nokia's own employees privacy, and NOT about customers. so it's not really relevant here. i'll bet you google does this (legally) in the states already.
Last edited by SubCore; 2009-10-29 at 13:19.
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2009-10-29
, 13:43
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Posts: 177 |
Thanked: 128 times |
Joined on Jan 2008
@ Espoo, Finland
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#284
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Originally Posted by SubCore
Why "without your knowledge or approval"? Pink glasses are required to use Google services? There are terms of use available, go read them. I would hope anybody who signs up for a Google account does.
while that might be true, they are not even close to the position google is in. google is already actively mining data without your knowledge or approval. and if you don't care about that, then... take off the pink glasses
If you want privacy for browsing (a suspicious idea at best, when are you truly anonymous online?) , log out of your google account, turn on private browsing or do something similar. There are times when I log out of google's services and disappear into the night, as well
Originally Posted by SubCore
Ahh, I see. That makes it OK then. Right you are!
edit:
by the way, that link you posted was about nokia's own employees privacy, and NOT about customers. so it's not really relevant here. i'll bet you google does this (legally) in the states already.
And no, it's not only about Nokia employees. It's not even just about what the law says -- it's what the company DID. What they did was push through a law that violated our constitution and legalized snooping people's transmissions by all sorts of various companies/associations etc. Nokia wanted a way to catch people who leak information (understandable, sure) and the Finnish constitution happened to get in the way. The law that was passed was a violation of our constitution according to legal experts. A violation that was created due to pressure from Nokia.
This is relevant since that law is quite evil, to use people's favorite term here. The whole "discussion" (using that word in a very generous way) here is about random accusations of one company being evil in manners that nobody can quite explain, yet it has to do with them collecting information and, oh yes, the year 2012. My example of your knight in shining armor raping the princess who helped raise him is very relevant, in my mind. If I'm wearing colored glasses, and I don't think I am, I'm surely not the only one.
(And no, I don't think Nokia is evil. I don't believe in evil.)
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2009-10-29
, 13:54
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Posts: 367 |
Thanked: 176 times |
Joined on Oct 2009
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#285
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Originally Posted by BatPenguin
Google registers what unregistered users do as well... LOL!
Why "without your knowledge or approval"? Pink glasses are required to use Google services? There are terms of use available, go read them. I would hope anybody who signs up for a Google account does.
If you want privacy for browsing (a suspicious idea at best, when are you truly anonymous online?) , log out of your google account, turn on private browsing or do something similar. There are times when I log out of google's services and disappear into the night, as well
That's why Google is hated this much!
Ahh, I see. That makes it OK then. Right you are!
And no, it's not only about Nokia employees. It's not even just about what the law says -- it's what the company DID. What they did was push through a law that violated our constitution and legalized snooping people's transmissions by all sorts of various companies/associations etc. Nokia wanted a way to catch people who leak information (understandable, sure) and the Finnish constitution happened to get in the way. The law that was passed was a violation of our constitution according to legal experts. A violation that was created due to pressure from Nokia.
This is relevant since that law is quite evil, to use people's favorite term here. The whole "discussion" (using that word in a very generous way) here is about random accusations of one company being evil in manners that nobody can quite explain, yet it has to do with them collecting information and, oh yes, the year 2012. My example of your knight in shining armor raping the princess who helped raise him is very relevant, in my mind. If I'm wearing colored glasses, and I don't think I am, I'm surely not the only one.
(And no, I don't think Nokia is evil. I don't believe in evil.)
Why do you keep changing the subject? It's about whether Google is evil, not Nokia.
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2009-10-29
, 14:01
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Posts: 177 |
Thanked: 128 times |
Joined on Jan 2008
@ Espoo, Finland
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#286
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Originally Posted by c0rt3x
Uhh, I didn't change the subject, it was Mr. Know-it-all who brought up Nokia respecting people's privacy.
Why do you keep changing the subject? It's about whether Google is evil, not Nokia.
Anyway, I give up, go on talking about evil and Darth Google. This is pointless. http://xkcd.com/386/
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2009-10-29
, 14:15
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Posts: 850 |
Thanked: 626 times |
Joined on Sep 2009
@ Vienna, Austria
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#287
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Originally Posted by BatPenguin
you don't seriously think many people really do that?
Why "without your knowledge or approval"? Pink glasses are required to use Google services? There are terms of use available, go read them. I would hope anybody who signs up for a Google account does.
i myself actually did read their terms, and immediately cancelled my gmail account. but most people won't care and just happily give their data away.
i am sufficiently adept to know how to surf anonymously, and google is one of the main reasons i am doing that.
Ahh, I see. That makes it OK then. Right you are!
i don't know enough about the finnish constitution to make a judgement on that, and my only source of information is the one link you posted, so i have to take your word for it. this article does however take a very clear position on the matter, without giving voice to other points of view or even elaborating about the law itself that has been passed.
and this sentence: "The employer would not be allowed to read the content of the messages themselves, however." makes me a bit sceptical about how deep of an intrusion this really is...
i can tell you how this sort of thing is handled in my publicly owned austrian-based company. we don't really have competitive trade secrets, so that's not that much of an issue, but it does pop up now and then.
we do allow personal use of company infrastructure (as in surfing and mail), and our sysadmins are not allowed to touch private traffic as long as personal use is tolerated.
however, if they determine that there IS abuse of corporate infrastructure, there is the possibility to deny ANY private traffic, in which case the sysadmins would be allowed to log and check mails from that point forward. as i said, in our case it's not so much about stealing secrets but about overusing for private matters. still, we have the discussion of completely prohibiting personal use regularly.
The whole "discussion" (using that word in a very generous way) here is about random accusations of one company being evil in manners that nobody can quite explain, yet it has to do with them collecting information and, oh yes, the year 2012.
i don't care about any mythical year numbers or anything like that, i care about what i know.
i know that google is mining data and reusing it over and over (they openly say so in their terms of use), and i know that by now they have become big enough with a big enough user- (=data-) base to be a serious threat (as a monopoly).
on one hand you complain about nokia not respecting it's employees' privacy, on the other hand you don't care that google does it on a much, much, MUCH larger scale...
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2009-10-29
, 14:59
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Posts: 1,097 |
Thanked: 650 times |
Joined on Nov 2007
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#288
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Originally Posted by christexaport
See, I constantly hear this argument - why do we need standalone apps when the best mobile browser is on the device and you can use any application from the browser itself ?
We have to remember this isn't a smartphone is the classic sense of the word, but a portable desktop device. What apps do you use on your desktop? Aside from the Photoshops, ProTools, and Nuendo apps, most of us use browser based services and apps. This will be the case for the N900 as well. As for IM and social networking, there are built-in features at the platform level. So the development of apps will be focused on real utilities that can revolutionize mobile computing, not just make it easier to do the things we've always done on our PC's on our phones. Maemo will be the sandbox for mobile innovation.
This doesn't cut with me personally. Not on a mobile device. And forget the fact that Nokia calls its a mobile computer - that doesn't in any way equate with how I use a actual desktop computer. You DO NOT want to copy how a user uses a desktop computer method and paradigm to a mobile device - irrespective of what you call the mobile device. Simply because it is a MOBILE device. You cant copy over the desktop paradigm to a mobile device.
And if the rationale that we can use browser based apps on the N900 (or any mobile device) worked fine, then pray tell me, why did Nokia go and integrate Social apps into the platform itself ? They could have just told use, use those IM / social services from the browser.
That's because standalone apps offer the one big advantage over browser based apps - Integration.
This meme of "go use a browser based app" is because we (some of us) are making excuses for not having good quality standalone apps for N900 and rationalize it by saying you can do everything from the browser. Any good UI design guy will tell you a mobile device has to be geared to mobile usage - which a full fledged desktop browser is not.
I don't understand this terminology distinction - N900 is not a smartphone. OK, I will agree with the terminology, but irrespective it is a mobile device - the same kind a smartphone is. Same size, same pocketability, same form factor. So how can the usage cases be THAT different from a smartphone. I can understand the extras the the N900 provides - more power, more opennesss etc, but that doesn't mean the smartphone use cases vanish .
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2009-10-29
, 15:02
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Posts: 177 |
Thanked: 128 times |
Joined on Jan 2008
@ Espoo, Finland
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#289
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Originally Posted by SubCore
...uh...got...to...get..away... but I can't.
on one hand you complain about nokia not respecting it's employees' privacy, on the other hand you don't care that google does it on a much, much, MUCH larger scale...
If this was Slashdot, I'd have to talk about cars, but no, let's try something else.
I have some friends who refuse to get these grocery store bonus cards here...we have a few large chains who give out cards that you can use to get a few percent off of your groceries. The catch is, of course, that they track what you buy and use that to a) market directly to you b) see what sells and to whom. I know that, everybody I know knows that...yet, most of everybody has these cards. Except a few die-hard conspiracy theorists who value the privacy of their toilet paper brand identity more than discounts. It's a trade - information for discounts.
So I get 5 per cent off my grocery bill (this is hundreds per year with a family) and I get some spam in my mail from my grocery store. Spam which I don't open and throw away. It's a fair deal to me. In practice, I get a discount for telling my grocery store what brand of toilet paper I use. (it's the very soft one, triple-layered, mmm.) You probably would not get one of these cards since you cancelled your google account as well - fair enough, your grocery store will not know that you prefer the yellow, cheap brand. (too harsh, not for me.)
This is, to me, quite simply, what Google does. Google just does it on a larger scale collecting information on what I do online. To me, it's a fair trade, the services I get from them are -- to me -- amazingly useful. The net is much more useful to me with Google services than without them. So, I'm fine with the agreement I've clicked on.
Can we agree that I'm allowed to make my own choice or would you perhaps like to change the laws to deny me my possibility to agree to Google's terms? Don't disrespect people's intelligence - plenty of people do know, and the media let's them know, that Google mines data. Still, most people see it as a good trade.
Me, my bonus cards and google are just fine. Thanks.
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2009-10-29
, 15:25
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Posts: 607 |
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Joined on Sep 2009
@ Washington, DC
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#290
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Originally Posted by BatPenguin
I wholeheartedly agree.
...uh...got...to...get..away... but I can't.
Me, my bonus cards and google are just fine. Thanks.
Service seems to be a concept that is lost on some. I like it that when I walk into my local coffee shop they know what I normally order and offer it to me. My life is less private because of it but I willingly give up that bit of privacy for that bit of service.
Google provides that on the Internet. A bit better experience in exchange for a bit less privacy. It's a tradeoff that I accept and you don't have to. Google gives you the choice.
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| Tags |
| comparison, competition, droid, fight, milestone, motorola droid, motorola milestone, n900, nokia n900 |
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Why take a perfectly good N900 and efficient OS and add a byte code layer to it? By doing so, we have just defeated the purpose and efficiency of the OS.
Just look at all the same building block-type apps that Android has. With the exception of the game emulators (which use C to some extent), they are all like Lego apps. This is due to the lack of resource access to the hardware. Unless the resource is directly part of the framework- you can not use it unless you want to beat the chipset to death and suck the battery down.
Try and create something as "simple" as an audio EQ or video codec that does not bog down. Can not do it- effiiciently.