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2009-11-23
, 00:39
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Posts: 5,478 |
Thanked: 5,222 times |
Joined on Jan 2006
@ St. Petersburg, FL
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#72
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Originally Posted by silvermountain
As the person who wrote the text and is observing you use it, I'm telling you it's entirely out of context and asking you to remove it.
Hmm...a) Not it's not out of context and b) that 'clarification' was not even close to being relevant to the wording initially used.
The quote you've selected is designed to make it look like I don't care about users or their opinions, and, as I've said, this is not the case. My point was: I don't believe end-users are served well by bugzilla and I don't believe trying to retool bugzilla to serve them is a productive endeavor! Perhaps I could've selected a better wording, but, perhaps you could try assuming good faith.
Originally Posted by silvermountain
There's no elitist attitude here. There's a simple reality that bugzilla is not a tool that serves end users well (and never will be).
Furthermore I believe that as the maemo user base grows, and the User-Developer ratio changes, more and more developers will find that the elitist attitude that too many of them have been sporting will be questioned.
Originally Posted by silvermountain
Which "developers"? Most of the "developers" I know have stopped bothering with this forum because of the rampant irrationality and ever decreasing SNR.
However, reading posts here and in the related threads it's also rather clear that I'm far from the only user that struggles with
really wanting to be active in a community - at the same time as we're feeling alienated by elitist attitudes (some expressed here) from the developers.
__________________
Ryan Abel
Ryan Abel
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2009-11-23
, 01:25
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Posts: 968 |
Thanked: 974 times |
Joined on Nov 2008
@ Ohio
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#73
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Being completely serious, and intending no disrespect I humbly ask the following question:
1) As primarily an end user, someone who would like to help improve maemo/devices, I would like to submit bugs somewhere that they will come to Nokia's attention.
2) Nokia clearly sources most of their bugs other than from bugzilla (125k vs 7k).
3) Per conversation above, Bugzilla is clearly not intended for end users.
Therefore, as an end user, where should I report bugs where it will do the most good?
I'm sure my options are listed out in a wiki somewhere (I haven't looked yet, but am planning on it). However, if anyone has a quick consice answer here, Id appreciate it, and I'm sure otheers reading this will as well.
Thanks in advance.
1) As primarily an end user, someone who would like to help improve maemo/devices, I would like to submit bugs somewhere that they will come to Nokia's attention.
2) Nokia clearly sources most of their bugs other than from bugzilla (125k vs 7k).
3) Per conversation above, Bugzilla is clearly not intended for end users.
Therefore, as an end user, where should I report bugs where it will do the most good?
I'm sure my options are listed out in a wiki somewhere (I haven't looked yet, but am planning on it). However, if anyone has a quick consice answer here, Id appreciate it, and I'm sure otheers reading this will as well.
Thanks in advance.
__________________
*Consumer*, not a developer! I apologize for any inconvenience.
My script to backup /home and /opt
Samsung Galaxy S Vibrant, Huawei S7, N900(retired), N800(retired)
*Consumer*, not a developer! I apologize for any inconvenience.
My script to backup /home and /opt
Samsung Galaxy S Vibrant, Huawei S7, N900(retired), N800(retired)
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2009-11-23
, 01:54
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Posts: 5,478 |
Thanked: 5,222 times |
Joined on Jan 2006
@ St. Petersburg, FL
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#74
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Originally Posted by lemmyslender
You, sir, are no end user.
1) As primarily an end user, someone who would like to help improve maemo/devices, I would like to submit bugs somewhere that they will come to Nokia's attention.
Enthusiast is the term I would use.
Originally Posted by lemmyslender
Bugzilla.
3) Per conversation above, Bugzilla is clearly not intended for end users.
Therefore, as an end user, where should I report bugs where it will do the most good?
I'm sure my options are listed out in a wiki somewhere (I haven't looked yet, but am planning on it). However, if anyone has a quick consice answer here, Id appreciate it, and I'm sure otheers reading this will as well.
As zerojay says, feel free to ask for help if you run into roadblocks.
__________________
Ryan Abel
Ryan Abel
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2009-11-23
, 02:02
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Posts: 794 |
Thanked: 784 times |
Joined on Sep 2007
@ /Canada/Ontario/GTA
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#75
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I am an end user, and I have used bugzilla to file bugs, enhancements, votes etc. It is not a complex process, and like I've said elsewhere - Andre and the bugsquad are very accomodating with novice bug reporters. As you may imagine, they do expect bug reporters to be considerate and cooperative in fleshing details (e.g. steps to reproduce bugs).
In many cases, Nokians and -Extras developers are active in bugzilla - adding comments, asking for further information from reporters, adding resolution targets, etc. These people are honestly trying to get things moving, and many end user are not helpful for a few reasons: they do not have the acumen required to converse with these types of people on a one to one basis, they do not provide the necessary feedback required, they do not provide constructive comments (e.g. "I cannot believe the N8X0 does not have feature XYZ"), etc.
So one viewpoint is that bugzilla is not friendly enough for end users. Yes, that is correct. Does it preclude end users from using it? No, it does not. I am an example of an end user that does make use of it. Thankfully, many of the things I have researched to report were already reported. Great!! I add my votes on them when I see those.
Are every day users supposed to be using bugzilla? There is no reason why they cannot. But really, from the tone and language and quality of posts on Talk in recent months - I can only imagine what bugzilla would end up looking like if more end users were filing bugs.
Is there another medium required for end users with actual bugs? Probably not. The reason for that is not intended to be discriminatory, or convey some air of elitism. Most true bugs are found by power users well before they are found by end users. That has been my personal experience.
The style guides (?), UI specs and other official documents that define HOW Maemo is supposed to operate should be placed in more prominent positions within maemo.org, IMO. That would at least give users the official descriptions of how things should work, minimizing the bug reports that aren't bugs, but "features".
In many cases, Nokians and -Extras developers are active in bugzilla - adding comments, asking for further information from reporters, adding resolution targets, etc. These people are honestly trying to get things moving, and many end user are not helpful for a few reasons: they do not have the acumen required to converse with these types of people on a one to one basis, they do not provide the necessary feedback required, they do not provide constructive comments (e.g. "I cannot believe the N8X0 does not have feature XYZ"), etc.
So one viewpoint is that bugzilla is not friendly enough for end users. Yes, that is correct. Does it preclude end users from using it? No, it does not. I am an example of an end user that does make use of it. Thankfully, many of the things I have researched to report were already reported. Great!! I add my votes on them when I see those.
Are every day users supposed to be using bugzilla? There is no reason why they cannot. But really, from the tone and language and quality of posts on Talk in recent months - I can only imagine what bugzilla would end up looking like if more end users were filing bugs.
Is there another medium required for end users with actual bugs? Probably not. The reason for that is not intended to be discriminatory, or convey some air of elitism. Most true bugs are found by power users well before they are found by end users. That has been my personal experience.
The style guides (?), UI specs and other official documents that define HOW Maemo is supposed to operate should be placed in more prominent positions within maemo.org, IMO. That would at least give users the official descriptions of how things should work, minimizing the bug reports that aren't bugs, but "features".
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2009-11-23
, 02:14
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Posts: 47 |
Thanked: 36 times |
Joined on Oct 2009
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#76
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In my opinion the steps already being taken by the community (ie: the guided submission form and the update to 3.4) are productively working towards a more user friendly bug reporting tool.
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Tiny text... Tiny Ninja-sized text.
Tiny text... Tiny Ninja-sized text.
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2009-11-23
, 02:53
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Posts: 968 |
Thanked: 974 times |
Joined on Nov 2008
@ Ohio
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#77
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I suppose that I might prefer "advanced non-developer", although enthusiast certianly fits as well. Yes, I probably wouldn't have any problem wading through bugzilla.
But, it seems as though the only place for a non Nokia employee to go is bugzilla? I'll assume that a very low percentage of "legitimate" bugs are from Nokia phone/email support. Meaning the majority of bugs are found internally, or through solicited avenues.
I think GA mentioned the key word "balance". Make it too easy and the signal to noise ratio is too high, make it too hard and I'll bet some bugs get reported, but overlooked (because power users know how to get around/avoid them). I feel that what has been discussed here is really just tweaking that balance from 80/20 to 70/30*. Make it a little easier / less intimidating to report bugs, and I'll bet the overall quality will go up.
Yes, there will be times when there is a flood of bugs (device releases) when a lot of new reporters are filing their first bugs, but with some extra work, they can become better reporters for their next bug, and perhaps help fill in information on other ones as well and actually reduce the workload as time goes on.
In the meantime, I'm not interested in creating yet another login for maemo.org. It's also unlikely that I'll be the first or even second person to report a bug (I'm not really that much of a power user). I can always browse them for solutions/work arounds. In the event that I do find one (or one I feel strongly about) I will get off my butt, login and report/vote for it.
*completely made up make believe numbers.
But, it seems as though the only place for a non Nokia employee to go is bugzilla? I'll assume that a very low percentage of "legitimate" bugs are from Nokia phone/email support. Meaning the majority of bugs are found internally, or through solicited avenues.
I think GA mentioned the key word "balance". Make it too easy and the signal to noise ratio is too high, make it too hard and I'll bet some bugs get reported, but overlooked (because power users know how to get around/avoid them). I feel that what has been discussed here is really just tweaking that balance from 80/20 to 70/30*. Make it a little easier / less intimidating to report bugs, and I'll bet the overall quality will go up.
Yes, there will be times when there is a flood of bugs (device releases) when a lot of new reporters are filing their first bugs, but with some extra work, they can become better reporters for their next bug, and perhaps help fill in information on other ones as well and actually reduce the workload as time goes on.
In the meantime, I'm not interested in creating yet another login for maemo.org. It's also unlikely that I'll be the first or even second person to report a bug (I'm not really that much of a power user). I can always browse them for solutions/work arounds. In the event that I do find one (or one I feel strongly about) I will get off my butt, login and report/vote for it.
*completely made up make believe numbers.
__________________
*Consumer*, not a developer! I apologize for any inconvenience.
My script to backup /home and /opt
Samsung Galaxy S Vibrant, Huawei S7, N900(retired), N800(retired)
*Consumer*, not a developer! I apologize for any inconvenience.
My script to backup /home and /opt
Samsung Galaxy S Vibrant, Huawei S7, N900(retired), N800(retired)
| The Following User Says Thank You to lemmyslender For This Useful Post: | ||
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2009-11-23
, 05:40
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Posts: 1,359 |
Thanked: 717 times |
Joined on May 2009
@ ...standing right behind you...
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#78
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Originally Posted by Renesis
""the meamo development community is too small to develop and support applications"
"I will however, never spend any money on a device that is supported by a community" "
The first one is accurate and I fully stand behind it: The maemo development community IS too small to both develop as welll as support the applications on the platform. We are seeing more and more apps being left un-supported and never 'finished' (see other thread for definition of 'finished').
The second one I can't remember as the last part is unfortunately cut off - but I'm pretty sure I still stand behind whatever the full sentence says.
Thanks for the quotes, I feel famous
__________________
.N810 experience: Since 6/2009
My Twenty Favorite OS2008 Applications:
AutoScan, Diablo5 Theme, Dialcentral, DragLock, EmelFM2, FlipClock, gPodder, Headphoned, Knots 2, Maemo Mapper, mPlayer, openNTPD, OpenSSH, Panucci, Personal Launcher, QuickNote, Seqretary, SlideLock, Telescope, YellowNotes
.N810 experience: Since 6/2009
My Twenty Favorite OS2008 Applications:
AutoScan, Diablo5 Theme, Dialcentral, DragLock, EmelFM2, FlipClock, gPodder, Headphoned, Knots 2, Maemo Mapper, mPlayer, openNTPD, OpenSSH, Panucci, Personal Launcher, QuickNote, Seqretary, SlideLock, Telescope, YellowNotes
Last edited by silvermountain; 2009-11-23 at 05:46.
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2009-11-23
, 08:10
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Posts: 2,173 |
Thanked: 2,678 times |
Joined on Oct 2009
@ Cornwall, UK
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#79
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Originally Posted by lemmyslender
Those were exactly going to be my questions.
Being completely serious, and intending no disrespect I humbly ask the following question:
1) As primarily an end user, someone who would like to help improve maemo/devices, I would like to submit bugs somewhere that they will come to Nokia's attention.
2) Nokia clearly sources most of their bugs other than from bugzilla (125k vs 7k).
3) Per conversation above, Bugzilla is clearly not intended for end users.
Therefore, as an end user, where should I report bugs where it will do the most good?
I'm sure my options are listed out in a wiki somewhere (I haven't looked yet, but am planning on it). However, if anyone has a quick consice answer here, Id appreciate it, and I'm sure otheers reading this will as well.
Thanks in advance.
A few small suggestions: the bug writing guide ought to be the first link on the front page of Bugzilla. In practice, it's not actually linked to on there at all. So if I want to submit my first bug, those helpful guidelines are nowhere to be seen. A big line marked "New to bug-filing? Guidelines are here!" would be simple enough to implement.
In fact, add two lines into your guidelines:
"If you are unsure of anything, leave it blank"
"If more information is needed, you will be contacted by the bug-squad"
And put the bug-guide as the FIRST linkie you see on Bugzilla, and I will shut the f*uck up about it. (Though I would like to see 'Commit' change - makes me think I'm sending my bug to a mental institution. Can we have 'Engage' or 'make it so' instead?)
__________________
Hi! I'm Kathy and I'm a Maemo Greeter! Welcome.
Useful links for newcomers: New members say hello , New users start here, Community subforum, Beginners' wiki page, Maemo5 101, Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)
Did you know Meego.com has forums too?
Hi! I'm Kathy and I'm a Maemo Greeter! Welcome.
Useful links for newcomers: New members say hello , New users start here, Community subforum, Beginners' wiki page, Maemo5 101, Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)
Did you know Meego.com has forums too?
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2009-11-23
, 09:43
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Posts: 1,665 |
Thanked: 1,649 times |
Joined on Jun 2008
@ Praha, Czech Republic
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#80
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Originally Posted by lemmyslender
Depends on the definition of sources. The 125k mentioned here are internal testing. So if "sources" refers to external sources the maemo.org Bugzilla is quite important, plus it's nowadays internally understood that these reports come from real testers in real usecases instead of some paid testers that follow some given instructions.
2) Nokia clearly sources most of their bugs other than from bugzilla (125k vs 7k).
Originally Posted by lemmyslender
That's really not what was written here. Bugzilla looks complicated at first sight, so it takes a few seconds to understand the Bug Entry Form, but it should not be too hard to understand if you want to report their bug. And yes, it is definitely welcome.
3) Per conversation above, Bugzilla is clearly not intended for end users.
My criticism here (and I repeat it again) is basically "End users that file a bug report that only says »Cannot send email plz help!!!«" should go to a forum instead first."
Noone said "Don't go to Bugzilla as an enduser". It's more like "Don't go to Bugzilla if you have no clue what you're actually going to do there". Same with punk concerts by the way if you don't like punk. :-P
I think what was said here about 95% of the end users is that many people simply will not have the involvement. They buy the N900 product and are not interested in what exact platform runs on the N900, that there is a community, a forum, or that they can report bugs. And that's their personal freedom (though they miss some fun in my opinion).
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maemo.org Bugmaster
maemo.org Bugmaster
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Furthermore I believe that as the maemo user base grows, and the User-Developer ratio changes, more and more developers will find that the elitist attitude that too many of them have been sporting will be questioned.
I'm well aware of that interacting with some of these people have made me both rather jaded and a bit bitter towards the 'maemo community'. Putting many of them on ignore helped though.
However, reading posts here and in the related threads it's also rather clear that I'm far from the only user that struggles with
really wanting to be active in a community - at the same time as we're feeling alienated by elitist attitudes (some expressed here) from the developers.
.N810 experience: Since 6/2009
My Twenty Favorite OS2008 Applications:
AutoScan, Diablo5 Theme, Dialcentral, DragLock, EmelFM2, FlipClock, gPodder, Headphoned, Knots 2, Maemo Mapper, mPlayer, openNTPD, OpenSSH, Panucci, Personal Launcher, QuickNote, Seqretary, SlideLock, Telescope, YellowNotes