Seriously there's no point telling this over and over again. Nokia's phone business is profitable. Period.

Well, I wouldn't say so. Nokia has already announced that it will not make as many models available 2010 as it has done in previous years. But there's no way it will drop it's cheap phones, since with Nokia's streamlined logistics it's the leader in that area and has invested a lot to that sector. One good example is the mobile banking service it has purchased.

@OrangeBox

You really have great advice! Nokia definately should pick the most competed segment in the market they are weakest in and ditch everything else. How come they didn't think about it before?!

What do you define as "real cost"?

The Hardware cost?

Then i'll give you the hardware for a n900, you build it for me and ship it to my local mobilephone-shop?

And if it's borken, i want to have a new one (of course i'll not pay for that) and i want support for dumb questions.

See my point?

1) Nokia's "devices and services" division made a profit last quarter.
2) I'm not aware of Apple reporting profits in any business units, only numbers shipped of each product. Looking at their quarterly reports, I can now also see that they report the amount of "deferred revenue" for iPhone etc but that's only a limited part of the picture.

It's always funny when the biases and agenda emerge.

Funny you bring up profits. Nokia's mobile devices devision made those too. And Apple's were mainly from apps and content sales. This is a short sighted strategy. Most analysts agree the future is web based apps and services. Where is Apple in these areas? I'll tell you. Setting themselves up for dependence on Google, Ovi, and Microsoft for services, where the real money will be made for decades to come.

You mentioned GM, which is ironic since I live near the Escalade/Tahoe/Suburban factory. Remember not too long ago how much profits the truck division made? All while they ignored the small car segment? Apple looks to be repeating this error by focusing on gouging consumers by crippling the browser to force the need for patches/apps to cover up its absence. No one will be fooled forever, and as alternatives arrive, iPhoners become more educated, and free software will become the new battle cry. Apple will surely then add Flash unless HTML5 is fully ready, but it will be too late. Apple has a music and media services, but so does everyone else. How will they compete supporting just Apple mobiles? Amazon and Nokia are closing in on that territory? And the "next billion" will most likely be using Nokia devices that cost under $325 before subsidy. Apple won't make a dime from them without big philosophical changes.

WRONG! Nokia's handset division made nearly $1 billion in profits. Its infratructure unit was the loser, and only because of a write off.

They are in the top two spots in every market but the US, which could well change in 2010 since the new carrier deals with at&t and TMobileUSA. Have been for many years now. Apple only has second place in the US, unable to usurp the faster growing Blackberry. They suck everywhere else, and if they slip because of Android in America, it will devastate their profits. Nokia could abandon entire countries and still be profitable and the world leader. If Blackberry and Apple combined, Nokia would still outsell them.

Its the product of a decent strategy implemented over the years. Its a luxury not many can boast to be able to change focus, ignore growth in the devices division, buy an OS and give it away, raise the prominence of another, launch a services wing, and buy the most powerful cross platform app and graphics framework to address every smartphone OS out there, then turn around and still be the resounding leader, now refocusing on its devices devision as well again. I predict Qt based app frameworks for RIM and possibly Android in the future, and its already available for Maemo, Symbian, WinMo, Windows, Linux, and Unix. Looks like Nokia sees something much bigger than short term growth selling phones and apps. Pretty soon all mobile OSes will be alike feature wise, and service access will be the biggest differentiator. Only Nokia is acting as an enabler of all services, not just its own. This will pay off down the road. They obviously learned from the history of PCs, and Apple seems to be repeating the same mistakes it did with the desktop. Know your history, and be wise enough to notice when it is repeating itself.

The evil carriers and acquiescent US consumers are to blame for that, and it is only to our detriment that most of the really powerful smartphonesdon't make it Stateside. I happen to know quite a few inteligent shoppers that need more than what the carriers offer that use Nokia smartphones. Maybe I'm just travelling in a smarter group of people than you. Its highly possible. Not everyone in the US is ignorant of Nokia, just unable or unwilling to pay full retail for an unlocked device up front. Only 10% of American do.

Ever talked to "the customers" in America? They aren't the consumers, but the carriers. Consumers have always complained about device choices and prices compared to Europe and Asia. It is the carriers that refuse to listen. Nokia was unwilling to allow the carriers to cripple their flagship models, and chose to walk away in support of consumers and the Nokia Nseries and Eseries brands. It hurt short term, but now the carriers realize, thanks to Apple, that they don't need to build moats around their services. They make money from the data anyway, and the share from app sales covers any looses from the silly ringtone and wallpaper businesses.

Right. Like F-150, CTS-V, G4, Z28, PSP, PS3, 151, N95, S2000, MR2, GT-R, 760Li, M3, TR-808, etc. You sure are digging a hole here. And if you happen to be right in the one case, carriers typically rebrand devices for retail sale anyway.

I think youmve missed a big point. Your POS American made car (I prefer German) made a Navi system able to sync with mobiles, not the other way around. If I'm making such a system, wouldn't the first order of business be to make it compatible with the top three mobile manufacturers on the planet? And wouldn't the best selling smartphone of the decade be a focus for compatibility? My N95 connected to every bluetooth factory system it ever came across. I'd be willing to bet the issue was with the system and not the device.

I didn't see any valid counter argument.

if every other handset manufacturer pays to nokia except apple, it means that nokia is stealing? or apple has unfair advantage? I'd vote the later. other lawsuits are inessential plus those have allready been closed by court (except screens -case. and that is against samsung for perverting competition, not nokia caught paying too little)

plus apple buys their iPhones ready from subcontractor and pay their licencing fees by that price, not end sales price like others.


note: i don't bother replying anymore if you don't have real arguments in the future..

I hear the manufacturing cost of a pair of Nike's is like a dollar or so. Are you surprised? Disappointed? Is this unfair? Are Nokia, Apple, HTC secretly rigging prices?

So it is profitable to make advanced phones because consumers are willing to pay for the convenience, the fashion accessory, whatever these gadgets represent to people. That is one reason everyone is rushing to the market (Acer, Dell etc) and in the long run we all benefit. BTW that 17 inch screen isn't pocketable.

While I agree that Apple managed to shake up the smartphone market and it is good that they did. Apple most certainly is not the archenemy of every major smartphone maker (Nokia probably is because of their market share).

Apple is indeed a large corporation, but Nokia is much larger.

Apples net sales were 36.5 Billion $ in 2009 and 32.5 Billion $ in 2008.

Nokia net sales were 50 Billion € in 2008 (63.5 B$ in 2008 by the lowest conversion average and 78.5 B$ by the highest conversion average of 2008).

Operating income for Apple in 2009 7.6B$, 2008 6.2B$ and for Nokia in 2008 4.9B€ (6.2B$ to 7.7B$ depending on the conversion).

Source: Apple financial report and Nokia financial report 2008

I dont think Nokia is ignoring NA and has been making some inroads with ATT, BestBuy and such recently. Booklet 3G has been quite good in this regard.

It's always product specific whether you want a lot of volume or a high profit margin. N900 is clearly a high end product and not high volume one.

Nokia already has plenty of low end products with the cheapest phones costing under 25$ for the consumer.

Maemo platform is designed to be high end only for the foreseeable future. Symbian smartphones median price is planned by Nokia to go down next year.

Maemo will be truly ready for the high end masses next fall when the Maemo 6 devices will land according to Nokia's road map.

Nokia slogan for the Maemo platform among others is No Compromises and targets the +400$ market.

Products like 5130 XpressMusic are high volume ones with 16 million units sold.

"Apple is indeed a large corporation, but Nokia is much larger."

This is simply incorrect. Nokia's market capitalization is 46 billion while Apple's 178 billion. Apple is 4x as big as Nokia is.

Sources:
http://www.google.com/finance?q=NYSE:NOK
http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=AAPL