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benny1967's Avatar
benny1967 is offline benny1967
2007-07-07 , 16:19
Posts: 3,790 | Thanked: 5,718 times | Joined on Mar 2006 @ Vienna, Austria
#151
Originally Posted by Karel Jansens View Post
It seems to me that Nokia is quite happy to take the easy road, hide themselves behind the perennial moniker: "It's an Internet Tablet, not a PDA!" and just sit back and assume they are great contributors to the Open Source movement.
Got myself a new desktop PC the other week. Most of the hardware is by Intel. Should I go and ask Intel for all the software I need/want? A word processor, great strategy games, a VoIP-client, ...? Would you? Probably not, because you know that there's people who do the hardware and there's people who do the software.

Nokia is the company who does the hardware. I understand it is their intention that it should be others who do the software; just to get things working, there's a few applications pre-installed, similar to a pre-installed Windows on a new PC.

I think its a reasonable strategy. The only thing they did wrong was to incorporate hardware thats unsupported in free software land, which prevents other variants of GNU/Linux to run on the device.

And: Yes, they are great contributors to the free software movement. Didn't we all read how now even their competitors plan to re-use the components they developed?
 
mobiledivide is offline mobiledivide
2007-07-07 , 16:20
Posts: 751 | Thanked: 522 times | Joined on Mar 2007 @ East Gowanus
#152
Originally Posted by ragnar View Post
There are many Nokia people related to the Maemo program that are reading these forums. Take me for instance. I'm a member of the interaction design team for Maemo. (Check out http://maemointeraction.wordpress.com btw. - plugplug! One way to communicate directly to the UI design team.)

Anyway, we cannot really go into a mode where we would read all the hype and start confirming/shooting it down one by one. That's not what any company in this field really does. Think about Apple or MS or anyone. There are many reasons, fortunately or unfortunately for that. Legal, implementation, contractual, marketing etc. Publicly committing beforehand to certain features in a certain schedule really limits the flexibility. Of course we then shouldn't be a in a mode where we would fan the flames of hype, so to speak.

Also it then depends a bit on the definition of a new feature. Things like bugs are actively being discussed in our bugzilla system. (And we're working on to further improve this.)
Thanks for addressing, I too don't believe you should go into a forum and start shooting down rumors, however when you deal with a market that is as savvy as this one I feel that they can be respected with a different level of interaction than is granted the regular Windows/Mac/Symbian user.
Also I think since the community is relatively small a little bit of interaction will result in a larger result than expected. It would be really interesting to know how many devices had been shipped/sold as compared to other Nokia devices such as mobile phones etc.

Anyway thanks a lot for all the hard work, I already enjoy this device and appreciate your input into the situation.
 
Karel Jansens's Avatar
Karel Jansens is offline Karel Jansens
2007-07-07 , 17:22
Posts: 3,220 | Thanked: 326 times | Joined on Oct 2005 @ "Almost there!" (Monte Christo, Count of)
#153
Originally Posted by benny1967 View Post
Got myself a new desktop PC the other week. Most of the hardware is by Intel. Should I go and ask Intel for all the software I need/want? A word processor, great strategy games, a VoIP-client, ...? Would you? Probably not, because you know that there's people who do the hardware and there's people who do the software.

Nokia is the company who does the hardware. I understand it is their intention that it should be others who do the software; just to get things working, there's a few applications pre-installed, similar to a pre-installed Windows on a new PC.

I think its a reasonable strategy. The only thing they did wrong was to incorporate hardware thats unsupported in free software land, which prevents other variants of GNU/Linux to run on the device.

And: Yes, they are great contributors to the free software movement. Didn't we all read how now even their competitors plan to re-use the components they developed?
Your comparison is seriously flawed. A more accurate one would have been to compare the Internet Tablet to Apple computers, but I guess that would have been less convenient.
 
Milhouse is offline Milhouse
2007-07-07 , 17:48
Posts: 3,401 | Thanked: 1,255 times | Joined on Nov 2005 @ London, UK
#154
Originally Posted by ragnar View Post
There are many Nokia people related to the Maemo program that are reading these forums.
You should all have "Nokia" appended (or prefixed) to your usernames so that we know who you are!
 
benny1967's Avatar
benny1967 is offline benny1967
2007-07-07 , 17:53
Posts: 3,790 | Thanked: 5,718 times | Joined on Mar 2006 @ Vienna, Austria
#155
Originally Posted by Karel Jansens View Post
Your comparison is seriously flawed.
Why?
Originally Posted by Karel Jansens View Post
A more accurate one would have been to compare the Internet Tablet to Apple computers.
Why?
 
fpp's Avatar
fpp is offline fpp
2007-07-07 , 18:34
Posts: 2,853 | Thanked: 968 times | Joined on Nov 2005
#156
Originally Posted by Karel Jansens View Post
Why not? Isn't that the Linux way: If it works, don't break it. If it doesn't work, ditch it and don't look back?
My QTopia-based Archos still works, and never crashes; I have a complete(-ish) Office suite for it (albeit obtained on a legally shakey basis) and all the programs I need for it. Heck, I can even plug in a USB keyboard and mouse and use a TV as monitor. Bear in mind that it was intended as a beefed-up media player.
The problem with the N800 is that a lot (and I mean a LOT!) of the basic functionality that QTopia gives, is missing from Maemo, even considering the geriatric condition of QTopia. I don't want the latest and hottest, I just want enough stuff to do what I need to do.
Consider this: Since 2005 many, many people have been asking for a decent port of Abiword to ITOS. It has become clear that there is not enough incentive from the OSS community to make this happen (which is not a complaint: OSS developers are allowed to do what they want; I don't pay their salary, so I don't get to set their agendas), and yet Nokia has done zilch all in this field. The same goes for a lot of other applications the community has been asking for.
It seems to me that Nokia is quite happy to take the easy road, hide themselves behind the perennial moniker: "It's an Internet Tablet, not a PDA!" and just sit back and assume they are great contributors to the Open Source movement.
I really like the N800 (and my 770 as well), but this attitude is beginning to seriously bug me. Just have a look at OpenMoko.org and OpenMoko.com to see how a real open platform should look like. I can still remember (heck, everyone can by going into the archives of this forum) how people reacted and gave suggestions after Nokia announced the 770. Exactly 0 (zero) of those suggestions made it into the consumer-ready version of the 770. The OpenMoko folks have adapted the hardware platform even before it came out, based on community feedback.
I see I need to elaborate on that original one-liner (I tend to be a bit terse when using the on-screen tapboard on the tablet, nothing like a real keyboard :-)...

Actually I mostly agree with you, as sometimes happens, except maybe for the end bit.

What I meant is that when I bought into the 770, and its proclaimed future, I had been using a Zaurus for some time. The hardware was fantastic for its time (and still unequaled in some respects, just like a Psion or a Newton), and the system & software probably OK at the very beginning. But it had already been clear for some time that Sharp was just riding its original masterstroke, and milking the platform's domestic success, with very few improvements from one hardware model to the next (750 vs 760 vs 860, anyone ?...) and just about none in the system/software department. The result was that outside of Japan the Zaurus lived, and still lives, just as if Sharp didn't exist, and mostly though its enthusiast user base. Unfortunately, from a user's point of view, the results were/are not pretty : fragmentation, quarrels between teams, dozens of competing ROMs incompatible with each other, and not one that you could call feature complete and/or user-ready.

In late 2005 I believed the 770 was another nice, innovative bit of hardware, but one that might escape such a sorry fate because its maker seemed to "get" the open-source game, thought globally, sold it worldwide, and looked like it could pull a "benevolent dictator" trick : allow the enthusiast community to grow and breed the platform, while acting as a central clearinghouse to maintain its unity and consistency. This is a known hallmark of many successful OSS standards : Linux/Torvalds, Samba/Tridgell, Python/van Rossum, Perl/Wall, etc., etc.

I do agree with you that in this matter, despite much posturing and feeble (or not very visible) attempts, Nokia's delivery has been utterly disappointing.

At this point, sadly, it looks like another (big) company unable to play the trump cards in its hands before it's too late, to relate to its user base, and recognize the value of its inside assets (that's for you Tex :-).

I hope I'm wrong, but this mess reminds me of the recent "History of Psion" recently published by the Register :
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/06/26/psion_special/

Psion had a dominant, first-to-market position, innovative projects, and the right people to implement them (some of which later went on to create the iPod and Tom Tom success stories). Yet it faltered through lack of vision, lack of user communication, mismanagement, strategic errors and fear of competitors. Ring any bells ?

However, I don't share your optimism concerning OpenMoko. Yes, they have an innovative hardware approach ; but history shows that the problem is software, not hardware. Without someone with the right attitude at the helm, what's to prevent this new platform to also become a wasteland of half-baked, mostly abandoned hacker efforts ?
Last edited by fpp; 2007-07-07 at 18:38.
 
qgil's Avatar
qgil is offline qgil
2007-07-07 , 18:46
Posts: 3,105 | Thanked: 11,088 times | Joined on Jul 2007 @ Mountain View (CA, USA)
#157
Hi, I work at Nokia for maemo and the Internet Tablet projects. I have recently blogged about feedback and communication between Nokia and the community: http://desdeamericaconamor.org/blog/node/373

Some thoughts after reading this thread.

- I agree we have to improve our communications with the community. Ideas are welcome (please keep reading).

- "Silence" is a tough accusation though. In the maemo.org context @nokia.com people are discussing with users and developers regularly.

- I guess the "silence" accusation comes from the fact that nobody is answering officially as Nokia in ITT discussions. I'm really not sure if Nokia members should commit to be active here, in an independent (and successful, and pretty cool) forum. Does anybody expect answers from Mozilla, OOo, Ubuntu, (etc) developers out of their own channels of feedback and discussion?

- If you want to know/influence the plans for maemo and the Nokia Internet Tablets your main reference is http://maemo.org/intro/roadmap.html . You hit that roadmap after going through the process suggested there: filing enhancement requests or proposals on wiki pages at maemo.org and communicating them to the maemo mailing lists.

- Let's agree that not every ITT contributor can/will go happily through that process even if her idea is good and feasible. But let's also agree that we can't compromise to be active in all the discussions happening out of our official channels. The role of the senior contributors or the highly interested is very relevant: they can pick interesting ideas in i.e. ITT, develop and push them into our process.
 
Karel Jansens's Avatar
Karel Jansens is offline Karel Jansens
2007-07-07 , 18:49
Posts: 3,220 | Thanked: 326 times | Joined on Oct 2005 @ "Almost there!" (Monte Christo, Count of)
#158
Originally Posted by fpp View Post
However, I don't share your optimism concerning OpenMoko. Yes, they have an innovative hardware approach ; but history shows that the problem is software, not hardware. But without someone with the right attitude at the helm, what's to prevent this new platform to also become a wasteland of half-baked, mostly abandoned hacker efforts ?
(snipped all the stuff I agree with, because -- well, because I totally agree with it)

OpenMoko is indeed taking its first baby-steps, but you have to agree that they appear to be listening to their user base: They just quadrupled the flash memory, almost doubled the processor speed and included WiFi b/g, all the things prospective users and developers had been asking (I'm assuming the motion sensors and the graphics accelerator were a free bonus ). To me, that shows commitment. If Nokia had done that, we'd have started with the N800 (OK, minus the camera, because it's lame)!

Also, if you go to http://www.openmoko.org/ and check the place out, you'll find that there are already quite a few projects in development, and the device isn't even out yet!
 
Karel Jansens's Avatar
Karel Jansens is offline Karel Jansens
2007-07-07 , 18:50
Posts: 3,220 | Thanked: 326 times | Joined on Oct 2005 @ "Almost there!" (Monte Christo, Count of)
#159
Originally Posted by benny1967 View Post
Why?

Why?
Don't you know?
 
Milhouse is offline Milhouse
2007-07-07 , 19:13
Posts: 3,401 | Thanked: 1,255 times | Joined on Nov 2005 @ London, UK
#160
Originally Posted by qgil View Post
- Let's agree that not every ITT contributor can/will go happily through that process even if her idea is good and feasible. But let's also agree that we can't compromise to be active in all the discussions happening out of our official channels. The role of the senior contributors or the highly interested is very relevant: they can pick interesting ideas in i.e. ITT, develop and push them into our process.
I agree that not every ITT contributor will go through that process - it's apparent that not every ITT contributor is even willing to file bug reports let alone file a detailed roadmap request.

However this site (ITT) is your litmus for how well Nokia is progressing and highly indicative of where some of the big problems are (from a humble end users point of view). For example, Thoughtfix has already submitted a roadmap request for Bluetooth PAN support but it should be obvious from the pain expressed on this forum that Bluetooth PAN support is an absolute necessity and not merely a wishlist item.

While I agree that we (the users) should assist Maemo and Nokia by submitting concrete requests for new functionality, it should also be possible for Maemo/Nokia to moderate their strategy based on some of the feedback available in this forum.

Nokia employees have attempted to be active in this forum in the past (Texrat) but for some reason the powers that be don't seem to appreciate his involvement - I think that's a missed opportunity.
 
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