Fortunately, I have no freedom-related personal complaints. Let me address your previous post..

Rather than go to another country to make a living, what if a big company create a factory in that place instead? Because of the weaker economy, the average salary would be lower compared to other more developed countries (which is why the big company would be interested to setup the plant there) but it'll create jobs and contribute to the local economy significantly. And it'll definitely reduce people running away to other countries and being productive elsewhere.

Unfortunately, that IS one of the pitfalls of having freedom. Compare this with people in prison, where most apparatus that can be used to aid suicide are confiscated.

Yes, you have the freedom to be creative and improvise on whatever life's problems and challenges come your way. If that is the only solution that you believe exist, then I'm afraid that's what you deserve.

I'm awake, what am I not getting here?

My belief is that this is an optimization problem. One in which gaining employment from a sweatshop may well represent a local maxima but is never an acceptable solution.

I dont really understand the popularity of the argument that since its a minor improvement then it must be ok. Its degrading and inhuman. I would not want to work under those conditions so I dont want anyone else to be forced to.

I think devu is saying that a choice between misery and even worse misery is no choice at all. Being able to choose your poison, or as you insensitively argue, being able to choose to end your own life, are such limited versions of freedom that they are not worthy of the word.

devu, you're right on. People that believe in or excuse unregulated or corrupt capitalism consciously or unconsciously support slavery. And when there's little regard for human life, there's generally less regard for anything else. And just so you know, I am here for pure FOSS reasons. With instant distribution, software is an easy place to start when you're trying to level a playing field.

And for perspective on the current state of human civilisation, one of the most progressive doctrines of modern times, the U.S. Constitution, originally supported slavery (but didn't support women's voting rights), and look what it took to remove that. But I think Texas is trying to rewrite history as we speak.

devu: an interesting point of view. A few comments:

Disagree. Market is "free" because no government regulates your access to the exchange. It has nothing to do with freedom, one way or another. It's just an euphemism. It's really called "anyone can legally sell whatever the heck they want as long as it's not banned or not theirs". The name didn't really catch.

Free market is free like black Tuesday was black. As in, not really.

Correct. None of them worked thus far, we're still trying. This is one reason why I feel like smiling at the US media every time they boast democracy as the ultimate government and freedom as ultimate value.

It's simply the last one standing as we speak. Funny thing is, it worked before under other names, and was with us in part throughout history.

Even funnier, democracy, freedom, elections and all that is standard in the modern world, isn't. Not even half of it is. And they are fine with it.

This is hours of fun on its own, so I'll stop here.

Disagree in the sense that you say that like it's a bad thing. I can still hear small companies, mom-and-pop stores complaining big business took their store.

Let me make this clear. Mom and pop lost to Starbucks because they cr*ppy coffee was more expensive and there was no wireless. Companies advance by supplying better goods at lower prices, safety guarantees, and generally better services and goods otherwise people would still shop in the old stores.

This is why you're in a Nokia forum. You're still free to buy China Telecom phones for 50$, buy you didn't, because they suck. Let's not throw away the baby with the bathwater (this was popular in England last time I was there).

There is nothing wrong with corporations. As for lobbies and other laws, well, so what. Did you really expect a small store or a person to have the same discounts a company like McDonald's have when purchasing napkins? This isn't freedom and equality, it's silly and inefficient.

As for stuff that happens over at Foxconn, they do that not by force. Those people aren't slaves to the company, they are slaves to poverty. I never accused Foxconn of being bad in my post. I simply painted a picture of the fact that conditions are harsh. I don't expect a company to start upping salaries when there are queues forming at the gates. I expect them to lower wages.

This is just how economy works. If anyone is to blame for this situation, it's their government. Their job is to tax and re-invest, raise poverty and institute and enforce rules of conduct. Also, taxing Foxconn raises its prices to the West, and they might just switch to India and they're even poorer.

Economic rebuild takes time these people don't have. it's bad, but let's not point the finger at the first target.

Corporations don't cause social problems. Social problems form as a result of social factors, like poverty, local politics, local law, etc. Aggravate they can, create they cannot. Well, assuming there is a local law. Otherwise they just take stuff from your house. But that stops being a corporation and more of a crime syndicate.

Assuming anyone will have you. Not an option for 99% of people. Definitely not an option for the average Chinese. Who'll take in a billion unqualified people?

Yeeess ..., well, that's a bit of a bind. You see, in order to lose stuff that's not yours, you need to first have stuff that's not yours in the first place. Like, you know, loaning huge amounts of money that far outweigh your ability to produce in a decent amount of time, assuming nobody will ask for it, even if it's theirs. Just because it's legal to take huge loans doesn't mean you should. If you're poor, you're poor. You don't load money and pretend you're rich and when the time comes, complain you're poor again.

How come nobody yelled freedom stinks when they were getting homes for nothing but a piece of paper with an IOU for the next 50 years? Nobody screamed murder when they got credit cards in the mail and just went ahead and spent it?

I am sorry, but my mercy for the whole crisis-stricken people is limited. Some have no fault of their own, but these people are few. Very few.

This may be a little off-topic, but before this crisis thing, people could see the cracks in the system and didn't care. People jumping off bridges because they had a job, then bought a car they couldn't afford, a house they couldn't afford, got married, had children they couldn't afford. When fired, the bank got everything and the wife got the kids. Plus alimony.

My heart isn't broken by this guy's peril. You signed away your life and now someone collected. Stop pretending everyone is entitled to <insert your thing here>. there isn't enough <insert your thing here> to go around.

This globalization of standards was unsustainable. They went overboard with the whole everyone needs house, car, education, kids, you name it. There is no way, ever, everyone will have that. Ever.

Makes you wonder how the heck people lived in houses before the loan system. You don't HAVE to take a loan because you don't HAVE to live in your own private residence. People assume that every person should have a nice home, car, high living standards, and everything else that the supply of goods and services they put out doesn't cover.

This mentality isn't sustainable. There aren't enough resources for everyone to have a home. Some will have to share a home.

Freedom means you make your own choices. And if you made the wrong one and now you're jumping off a bridge, then yes, I call that freedom.

Those people in the OP have a radically different problem. They chose nothing, assumed nothing, signed nothing. All they did was be born there.

I'm afraid you lost me. Must be a UK thing. I pay CO2 tax, embedded in gas price, that in times of peace goes to clean up the mess. Visible changes have happened since then. More green areas, well-trimmed green areas, more parks, more trees, less inefficient cars, and by "visible" I mean "visible" improvement. Sight radius has increased in the last few years. The air no longer smells like burned gas. I lived for a few years in a house that overlooked a river in the middle of Bucharest and every year I could see further away.

Lately, in my area they started planting flowers on the light posts, via suspended rings, to hide the old gray and add reduce smell and pollution.

This is something you won't hear often: I'm happy to pay the damned tax.

Disagree. A hefty shovelful of people think "free" means they can do what they want. This is bad. And wrong. The only rule freedom has is "Your freedom ends where my freedom begins". So you are NOT free to yell out loud if other people are trying to sleep. There is a difference, as someone put it before me (Chris?), (semi-quote) there is a difference between screaming a political opinion and screaming "Fire" in a crowded theater.

Most people don't know freedom if they get beaten with it.

Freedom means that you can do whatever you like as long as nobody objects. In that sense, we're free.

What do you think freedom is?

a) Open software can't be "taken over". It's free and, if your project has been taken over, fork away and maintain a worse, if free, alternative.

b) The reason they "take over" is because people switch to their version because it's better. It's called handing over, not taking over. And who exactly loses if a corporation makes an open project better? That can't close it, just build over.

Internet IS taken over by corporations in one form or another. So? Adding to it is cheap and you can add non-corporate content. It will probably wither away in obscurity.

This is freedom, the right to choose. And people chose to use "free" sites that bombard them with ads. No major free site is anything else by corporation-backed.

And who's fault is that? Not corporations. Stop pointing fingers. Google is huge because every time you have a question, you type it in. It's become a commodity, like bathwater.

Want to make a dent? Stop using corporate websites. See how that goes.

Better yet, make a true dent and renounce all corporations. Make yourself a shovel and start digging for water.

There is no reason to insult people. Also, equating agreement with you to "waking up" is false. No matter what you say and who you're saying to, there is always a chance of being wrong.

We are all humans and humans are WRONG at least some of the time. No matter what you do, sooner or later you'll be wrong, even if you only say what you are sure to be right.

You are already wrong by assuming you're not wrong. There's always a chance.

Generalizing and focusing like "wake up" is only going to make things harder to listen to. Few people with "the end is neigh" cardboard signs have any decent info to share. Few people that speech away with "wake up" have relevant info. Don't get mixed up with them if you want anyone to listen. And there's going to be no waking with no listening.

But I could be wrong.

Hehehe


read about eh early Days At EA (Electronic Arts)

*from memory* so dont flame me if im wrong

it was 100+ hours a week, 7 days a week, but after a time, as a sort of bonus you got a Saturday off

the good old days

but tbh all s/w developers tend to work all hours available ?, christ years ago when i was in s/w I used to dream about my code, and im sure this is a pretty common thing (well I hope it is :S) caused by excessive hours.

on the plus side, we did get paid a *bit* more than $150 a week

China is a rising superpower, in fact they will make the US look small, UK insignificant soon. its a bit like Britain's industrial revolution, where cheap labour was employed, kids on linen looms, kids in the coal mines etc etc.....its no different really

christ, this is peoples lives we are talking about here..........not some fanboi war....................

Same fking factory

http://taiwanbizz.com/apple-nokia-de...t-foxconn-site

And personally, I wouldn't accept Apple, Nokias etc management "ignorance" as an excuse.....of course they knew or had a fair inkling, its just now its headline news.

And just while we are all moralising about these poor workers, lets moralise about the *HUNDREDS* of thousands of innocent Afghan and Iraqi civilians killed and maimed by the UK/USA..........

The world is truly a twisted place

peace

I have to wonder if Apple is going to be getting the Nike and Wal-Mart treatment with organised protests and boycots until they either change their business practices and pretend to.

"I have to wonder if Apple is going to be getting the Nike and Wal-Mart treatment with organised protests and boycots until they either change their business practices and pretend to."

Will that also cover NOKIA who Foxconn manufacture for ??????

http://taiwanbizz.com/apple-nokia-de...t-foxconn-site

Im no fan of the system of governance in the West but this statement strikes me as curious. Why do you think they are fine with it?

That would be a $50 phone from another corporation, right?

You seem to be saying that a corporation is a crime syndicate waiting to happen. Im not sure I could pick a major one where that transition has yet to happen.

House, car, education, kids? I could easily live with decent public transportation but house, education and kids are surely basic, easily provided for needs. Im kind of disappointed that you consider these to be luxuries.

Your hypothetical suicidal loser swimming in his own excesses and blind to his recklessness is quite the strawman.

The freedom to do what ever you like as long as it doesnt infringe on the freedom of others. Objections be damned.


As could I.

As an aside I find this post of yours to be a world away from the one you posted earlier in the thread. You seem like a sensible guy so I guess Im missing something but I read the post from 2 days ago as a criticism of the reality suffered by workers exploited by corporations.

Guys, this has gotten too political and sorry, that's off limits. Closed.