In this case, I would define it as unanimous representation of multiple issues, concerns and questions as opposed to hopefully niche and minor grievances being handled first.

Those stances change over times, some reactionary to Nokia's changes in directions, personal changes in one's life, et al. Even politicians sometimes have moments when they sorta re-introduce themselves and what they've deemed important past tense and if that's still the case present tense and going forward; future tense.

I think honestly in this case, some people are inquiring what are the core ideals that the council represents now after being elected and after they've had to deal with Nokia and the community and if anything had changed from Day 1 to now.

Thank you for clarifying your stance. Does this clarification exist for all inclusive council members? I think (and this is a VERY American colloquial saying here) there is a true need for a "coming to Jesus" meeting where the council members state what is important, what was important and what will be important to them in the face of these changes that have come from Nokia in recent months.

If that's already have happened, then it's either not visible enough nor communicated well enough and could possibly alleviate some of the frustration. I get a feeling that people just don't know what the council does, how effective they are in terms of representing ongoing grievances that have no true answers as of yet (Flash Player 10.1 for instance) and so forth.

I'm personally not under the impression that the council does nothing. Nor do I feel as if the council is ineffective.

I just don't know what all is being done. It feels like some bit of communication is missing. So it that due to not asking intelligent enough questions, not engaging the council as a community member properly - or frequently enough, or... well, let's just put it out there.

How does a normal community member, not in a moment of anger or frustration, state calmly what our concerns are and have those either addressed by somebody in the council or by other community members and not have those things relegated to a whisper in the dark or a message in a bottle dropped into the sea.

Effective communication from community to council may very well be happening. I'm personally asking and stating that I don't know how.

I'm sure others will/may state the same.

I have to get back to work so I can only respond to this.

While issues may change over six month's time, I wouldn't expect actual stances to... unless we're talking something dramatic. Again, not speaking for the rest of the council, but the way I believed and acted coming in is the way I believe and act going out. Only difference is I am less optimistic.

> Would you miss the Council if it was gone?

Yes, a lot.

And I will also miss a community council in the MeeGo project if none is formed, based on the different setup of that project and community.

It has been already said, but the basic point you need to understand is that the Maemo Community Council addresses primarily community topics, and we at Nokia collaborate with this team mainly on community topics.

N900 support, Flash, Ovi Maps, etc are consumer topics. Even if maemo.org wouldn't exist at all Nokia would have a fair idea about the opinion customers (users and developers, current and potential), media (social and traditional) and shareholders (for that matter) would have about them. These consumer topics usually are tied to significant project investments and strategic decisions that go way above the Maemo Community, its Council and the Nokia guys interacting here with you.

The Council is a tool with a purpose. Use it for the purpose it has been designed and you will probably get good results. Try also to use it for other purposes if you feel so: the tool is young and still quite unexplored. But don't ask the Council to fix what you don't like from Nokia. Dismiss it for that reason is like dismissing a hammer because it can't cut nails properly.

What would that do? So he could "re-acquisition" the N900's Nokia already gave to some community members to other, newer, community members that barely got here???


(couldn't resist.... I tried.. real hard...)

qgil, I should have just waited for you to answer. Your post sums everything up perfectly. Thank you.

Wow!

Ok, here's what I see:

The council is extremely useful in doing what it does. And what it does is largely what it has always done. What has changed is the nature of the community from mostly devs and power-users to mostly users and comsumers.

Most of the things which the Council has tackled are things of relevance and significance to developers and seriously serious power-users. Several of the issues are waay over my head, and that of some other people by the look of it. I'm fortunate in being engaged enough to recognise that issue like the py-thingy will eventually make a difference to my user-experience without my needing to understand how or why it works. In respect of these things, the council is invaluable. And I personally thank the council members, past and present for their work.

On the other hand, most of the things that people are complaining haven't been done are end-user/consumer issues. These people feel that the Council should have changed Nokia's (or Adobe's!) policy for them and have failed. In part that's because those things aren't actually what the council is there for, but more importantly it's because they are corporate business decisions that Nokia (or whoever) is not listening on.

The council cannot make 'Flash 10' happen, however much you may want it. Nor can they persuade Nokia to reverse its business decision about meego. What they can do is support and engage community members in finding solutions to those problems - so for example there's already a form of meego that runs on n900, and I believe the Council is engaged in asking Nokia to support those community members who want to make it more complete by giving them the tools/code they need. And getting devices, sponsorship etc for the community members working on this to facilitate their work.

It is not the Council's role to nag/bully/bribe Nokia to bring an Official meego to n900. It may well be the Council's role to persuade Nokia to let people working with the meego code have the n900 drivers etc needed to create a really smooth, stable Community meego for n900.

Part of the problem here is that a number of people have set their hearts on certain specific items, and will not be satisfied till they have what they want on their terms. Case in point is the number of people still complaining that n900 "doesn't have MMS" just because Nokia themselves didn't write the code. Thankfully, those people are finally drifting away (because fMMS is so damned good.)

I'm afraid the idea that you bought a device 'as is' and further developments are a bonus seems to be missing. Having failed to get any joy out of Nokia, they will turn their anger on anyone else in line, disregarding whatever other, valuable things have been achieved.

Do we still need the council? I believe we do. Do we need to make the terms of reference clearer? That might help. Just as we need to keep reminding people that this is not a Nokia complaints department, we might need to explain to people that the Council is not there to achieve the imposible with regard to Nokia's business policy.

Double for me.

*Passes Texrat a hammer*

Wow guys... you're just like politicians... you're ridiculous! Soo much blaber and argumenting that leads to nothing.

How about doing something useful and speeding up devel to maemo.org application transition for a change and petition Flash 10.1 or MeeGo on N900.

You're actions are really not reaching anybody so make something that we can actually see. Make Nokia hear and make them answer.

When I'll see a post about an official (positive) answer I'll stop considering your "council" utterly useless. To me you are good mods/admins and the forum is kept nice and tidy, help is at every corner, but that's it.

The big problem in my opinion is that there is no proper place to address consumer issues.

i get the feeling you have not really read this thread at all
try reading the last two pages and you'll understand why i came to that conclusion.