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danramos is offline danramos
2010-08-16 , 22:45
Posts: 4,672 | Thanked: 5,455 times | Joined on Jul 2008 @ Springfield, MA, USA
#71
Originally Posted by Milhouse View Post
IANAL but I'd say it's the following copyright claim:

It seems to be saying that Google are inducing end users and device manufacturers to use copyrighted Oracle technology without an appropriate licence, ie. Java compilers, tools and documentation.
It doesn't specify WHAT copyrights are being violated. It's ambiguous. We're still waiting on PACER evidence related to the copyright claims but from what I read, it's unusual for the lawsuit itself to omit a list of charges regarding what is being violated.

Originally Posted by Milhouse View Post
So far I've only seen evidence that confirms the intermediary bytecode approach.
If true, that'll be interesting.
 
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Venemo is offline Venemo
2010-08-16 , 23:10
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#72
So what's the problem?

Imagine yourself as a developer. What would you do if some random guy came, copy-pasted your code and then made money with it without your approval?

I think Oracle does the right thing. Google is evil and deserves this.
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danramos's Avatar
danramos is offline danramos
2010-08-16 , 23:16
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#73
Originally Posted by Venemo View Post
So what's the problem?

Imagine yourself as a developer. What would you do if some random guy came, copy-pasted your code and then made money with it without your approval?

I think Oracle does the right thing. Google is evil and deserves this.
Except that...

1) this isn't a random guy (Sun and Google have history around this)
2) there's no evidence of copying and pasting (copyright isn't even the point of the lawsuit, apparently)

But I'll give you this...

3) they did make money without Sun's approval.

Those bastards! How dare they!
 
egoshin is offline egoshin
2010-08-16 , 23:44
Posts: 992 | Thanked: 995 times | Joined on Dec 2009 @ California
#74
Originally Posted by Milhouse View Post
2) Given the existence of dx, why go to the lengths of creating your own Java/Dalvik language compiler - just use an existing Java language compiler and bolt the dx tool on at the end to convert the newly generated Java bytecode into Dalvik bytecode. No need to reinvent the wheel.
Actually, bytecode conversion is much less efficient at run time. Taking into account a lot of tools for syntax parsing it is much easy to create a clean Java compiler.

Unless anyone can state categorically that Google have their own clean-room Java language compiler which spits out Dalvik bytecode without generating intermediary Java bytecode I think Google may be on a slightly sticky wicket.
Does Google use DX for Dalvik or they just provide DX for people?
It would be interesting to discover that Google has their own compiler but doesn't distribute it because of copyright/patents/etc.

Anywhere, Java future is in clouds now. You can easily have a problem with Oracle if you are successful with Java even as tool.
 

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egoshin is offline egoshin
2010-08-16 , 23:44
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#75
Originally Posted by Milhouse View Post
All versions of Java use a VM. All Java apps (even J2ME apps on Symbian) are compiled to bytecode and need a VM to run (the Java Runtime Environment is the VM needed to run Java apps). Nokias Mobile Runtime for Java Applications (JRT) is still a VM.

Dalvik is just another bytecode compiled system.
I worked with VM on IBM/370 long time before Java was even created.
The first Fortran compilation system on UNIX (again - long time before Java) used bytecode VM.

So, this (VM and bytecode VM) is not Sun-Oracle invention.


Originally Posted by danramos View Post
So yeah, as a technical clarification, it doesn't run Java tokenized code--it recognizes Java LANGUAGE that you type in, but it generates DALVIK (Android) bytecode.
I repeat myself - now (after this lawsuit) the using Java is problematic in any long-term project. Too many untrusted points here if you use Java LANGUAGE.
 
lma is offline lma
2010-08-17 , 00:12
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#76
Originally Posted by Milhouse View Post
I wonder where Google obtained the Java language compiler and tools they're using?
They took bits from Apache Harmony IIRC. I wonder if this lawsuit would be possible if they were using Sun's (GPL) OpenJDK instead...
 

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qwazix is offline qwazix
2010-08-17 , 00:24
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#77
Java desktop died years ago when sun sued microsoft and java was removed from windows. Flash has (unfortunately?) taken it's place as the platform independent client side web application language.

I don't see much of a difference now, for the mobile industry. They are just killing their own child.
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Last edited by qwazix; 2011-08-21 at 10:39.
 
kureyon is offline kureyon
2010-08-17 , 05:47
Posts: 992 | Thanked: 738 times | Joined on Jun 2010 @ Low Earth Orbit
#78
Originally Posted by qwazix View Post
Java desktop died years ago when sun sued microsoft and java was removed from windows.
That was because MS practiced their notorious "embrace, 'extend in incompatible fashion', extinguish" strategy on it. They added kludges onto it so that anyone using those kludges would mean that it would only run on MS platforms hence ending cross platform compatibility. Sun's lawsuit put an end to that.

MS's bastardisation of HTML/CSS standards (along with their bugs) are still the curse of web developers worldwide.
 

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danramos is offline danramos
2010-08-17 , 06:28
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#79
Originally Posted by kureyon View Post
That was because MS practiced their notorious "embrace, 'extend in incompatible fashion', extinguish" strategy on it. They added kludges onto it so that anyone using those kludges would mean that it would only run on MS platforms hence ending cross platform compatibility. Sun's lawsuit put an end to that.

MS's bastardisation of HTML/CSS standards (along with their bugs) are still the curse of web developers worldwide.
No kidding. Near as I can tell, it's only BECAUSE Sun successfully won that case that Java is still relevant, cross-platform and available on so many platforms at all. Microsoft would have turned it into the next IE bastardization of standards that depends on Windows DLL's like ActiveX and .NET.
 
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Venemo is offline Venemo
2010-08-17 , 07:19
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#80
Originally Posted by danramos View Post
1) this isn't a random guy (Sun and Google have history around this)
2) there's no evidence of copying and pasting (copyright isn't even the point of the lawsuit, apparently)
It was just a metaphor, sorry if you didn't understand that.

Originally Posted by danramos View Post
But I'll give you this...

3) they did make money without Sun's approval.

Those bastards! How dare they!
Yep, they did. They also did violate Sun's patents.

While I don't agree with the existence of software patents at all (there are fortunately no software patents in the EU), but in those unfortunate countries where there are, this is quite legal.

Also, I'm missing an antitrust lawsuit against Google. If they could make one against Microsoft some years ago, they should do it with Google, too.
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