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Stskeeps is offline Stskeeps
2010-12-09 , 20:34
Posts: 1,671 | Thanked: 11,478 times | Joined on Jun 2008 @ Warsaw, Poland
#101
Originally Posted by pycage View Post
\\
E.g. your app gets no sound in silent mode, there'll be audio stuttering when pushing the power button or locking the device, or the OS simply decides to give your app no CPU cycles, making it look jerky.
You're forced (!) to use the Maemo5 frameworks and APIs to get around that, and those usually perform poorly and don't have useful documentation, either.
Policy framework things are coming to MeeGo, too, which puts a burden on applications to state what kind of activities they're doing.. Such as media player behaviour or dialer ringtone, determining device behaviour and priorities in certain situations.. It's kinda needed for any kind of sane behaviour.

We'll have a open policy for you to rewrite, AFAIK.
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nicolai is offline nicolai
2010-12-09 , 20:41
Posts: 1,637 | Thanked: 4,424 times | Joined on Apr 2009 @ Germany
#102
Originally Posted by qgil View Post
The OS development is happening at MeeGo and there you have a collection of open source applications being developed as well. It's up to vendors to take these, take other free software apps or take none.
I don't understand, how is this related to the text you quoted?
Originally Posted by qgil View Post
When it comes to product development the guys deciding on the Nokia investments and the plans to convert them into benefits conclude that having a Nokia proprietary layer is better for business than not having it. Looking at the market and at the business results of companies shipping devices with 100% free software I can't deny that they have a point.
I can understand this points, but 100%free software doesn't mean
100% open-source-community-based-crap or semi-professional software.
Originally Posted by qgil View Post
And note that some of the pre-installed apps in Maemo 5 are open source or have a relatively thin closed UX layer on top of open application engines. So it's not that black and white either.
Yes, but it is this thin layer that stands in our way. A thin layer
wouldn't be so bad, but there are some terrible bugs.

calendar application:
forgets task alarms
has senseless alarm presets.
mediaplayer widget play button doesn't work always.
camera applications exposure setting does not work with manual iso setting.

So you have this thin layer but some parts
just don't work.

We don't know how long nokia supports maemo5 or
if there will be another update.
Is there hope to get bugs fixed?
And (I don't really dare to ask) feature requests?

Another probem is, nokias applications aren't great they aren't worthfull to protect but they are well integrated. And this advantage
is inaccessible for the community. We can never fully replace these well intergrated applications with our owns.

It is just sad to see what could be possible with the great N900 hardware, the Maemo5 OS and this community.

nicolai
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pycage is offline pycage
2010-12-09 , 20:50
Posts: 3,404 | Thanked: 4,474 times | Joined on Oct 2005 @ Germany
#103
Originally Posted by Stskeeps View Post
Policy framework things are coming to MeeGo, too, which puts a burden on applications to state what kind of activities they're doing.. Such as media player behaviour or dialer ringtone, determining device behaviour and priorities in certain situations.. It's kinda needed for any kind of sane behaviour.

We'll have a open policy for you to rewrite, AFAIK.
It's not the policy framework I dislike about Maemo5. It's the fact that it's mostly undocumented and Nokia never intended applications to play by its rules because the rules were kept secret.
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Venemo is offline Venemo
2010-12-09 , 21:19
Posts: 1,296 | Thanked: 1,773 times | Joined on Aug 2009 @ Budapest, Hungary
#104
Originally Posted by pycage View Post
It's not the policy framework I dislike about Maemo5. It's the fact that it's mostly undocumented and Nokia never intended applications to play by its rules because the rules were kept secret.
Not true.
The main problem is that they don't obey their own rules. Download a while/light theme and see the calendar app. It remains black... (there are other examples as well)
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ZogG is offline ZogG
2010-12-09 , 21:41
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#105
Originally Posted by qgil View Post
The current situation is that you have Qt 4.7 in Maemo and MeeGo, still Qt 4.6 in Symbian and you also have a recent Nokia announcement saying that the company strategy is to focus on Qt, Qt Quick and HTML 5. Qt Quick is precisely the main difference between Qt 4.6 and 4.7. Once Symbian integrates Qt 4.7 with the corresponding wider support of Qt Mobility the cross-compatibility promise will be fundamentally there. Looking at the Qt roadmap it looks like Qt 4.8 (expected next year) will bring the full materialization of this promise.
what? so maemo has same Qt as meego and still you want to develop on meego, but on maemo? and even on symbian where Qt is old? i'll ask u again and i want straight answer "why u asking developers to develop for symbian and not maemo while it should be portable anyway as u advertasing yourself"
 

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theonelaw is offline theonelaw
2010-12-09 , 22:43
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#106
Originally Posted by Venemo View Post
Not true.
The main problem is that they don't obey their own rules. Download a while/light theme and see the calendar app. It remains black... (there are other examples as well)
Add an example:
locales are also a serious problem (calendar, ISO non-compatibility)
although I am still trying to hack this issue
it appears that some of the nokia-binaries still refuse to play
with locales in a sane manner.
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danramos is offline danramos
2010-12-09 , 23:12
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#107
Originally Posted by Jaffa View Post
I agree with both points, but opening them consists of a number of steps: it's not just throwing the code over the wall:
  • Has it been cleared by Legal?
  • Does it expose any internal/company confidential information? (In particular, in the build system)
  • Does Nokia have the right to open the source code up; or is some potentially owned by a third party?
  • Has it been reviewed for any inappropriate comments in the source?
  • ...

So releasing existing apps will cost Nokia real time & money; despite how sensible it seems to be (and I'd love to fix one or two bugs rather than help Mohammad in the effort to port the existing media player to Qt in an open source way)
So the question, then, is... why isn't Nokia writing open-source applications from the start (or writing new, or getting open-sourced apps and using them) on these devices, so as to avoid the whole problem altogether? Why does Nokia feel the need to obligate users to use closed-source software, even the ones written by Nokia themselves, on a platform being sold on the benefits of being "open-source"?

Originally Posted by qgil View Post
When it comes to product development the guys deciding on the Nokia investments and the plans to convert them into benefits conclude that having a Nokia proprietary layer is better for business than not having it. Looking at the market and at the business results of companies shipping devices with 100% free software I can't deny that they have a point.
100%? How about at least 95%? 90% even? Why does more or less than around half of the firmware image have to come with so much closed-source? To the results, how badly is Red Hat doing? IBM? Hell.. zLinux is 100% open-source that runs on IBM mainframes when they sell their hardware and it's doing pretty well, last time I checked. Novell isn't doing too shabby with SuSE either. They should broaden their scope and look again and how it CAN be done, instead of looking only at handset manufacturers and how they did things wrong.

Mind you--these are server Linux support licenses but they're giving away their distributions of software for free and open-source, with little to no closed-source. Wouldn't Nokia rather sell these devices with a world-class, enterprise capable level of support and maintain customer loyalty to profit from what is essentially a free software product along with their hardware? Nokia's view seems far too narrow and myopic to think of how they could difference themselves from old-school cell phone hardware manufacturer thinking.

My two cents.
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javispedro is offline javispedro
2010-12-09 , 23:17
Posts: 2,355 | Thanked: 5,249 times | Joined on Jan 2009 @ Barcelona
#108
Originally Posted by danramos View Post
how badly is Red Hat doing?
I find it funny that you mention RedHat, considering they do practically the same Nokia does. (They have large closed source software comercial offerings, but it is usually presented as a opensource friendly company because they use and, more importantly, contribute to open source projects. Like Nokia).
 
danramos's Avatar
danramos is offline danramos
2010-12-09 , 23:25
Posts: 4,672 | Thanked: 5,455 times | Joined on Jul 2008 @ Springfield, MA, USA
#109
Originally Posted by javispedro View Post
I find it funny that you mention RedHat, considering they do practically the same Nokia does. (They have large closed source software comercial offerings, but it is usually presented as a opensource friendly company because they use and, more importantly, contribute to open source projects. Like Nokia).
It is terribly funny, isn't it? Especially considering the host OS and most of what they give you is pretty much almost entirely open-source and the closed-source offerings are software packages that they offer and support above and beyond the LAMP or base OS they offer. ...much like buying and running closed-source applications you buy for the tablet... yanno, not tied to the OS so much. Funny that, yes.
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javispedro's Avatar
javispedro is offline javispedro
2010-12-09 , 23:36
Posts: 2,355 | Thanked: 5,249 times | Joined on Jan 2009 @ Barcelona
#110
Originally Posted by danramos View Post
It is terribly funny, isn't it? Especially considering the host OS and most of what they give you is pretty much almost entirely open-source and the closed-source offerings are software packages that they offer and support above and beyond the LAMP or base OS they offer. ...much like buying and running closed-source applications you buy for the tablet... yanno, not tied to the OS so much.
Actually, I'd say that their proprietary software is so tied to the OS that it makes no sense to use it outside of a RedHat context, and that for obvious reasons I do not feel like hacking on it the same way I do feel like hacking on for ex. the Notes (EDIT: the Nokia Notes) application.

So, other than myself not willing to pursue RedHat like I would Nokia for this, because of what was stated above, I see no difference.
Last edited by javispedro; 2010-12-09 at 23:40.
 
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