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IsaacDFP is offline IsaacDFP
2011-02-19 , 14:56
Posts: 435 | Thanked: 197 times | Joined on Feb 2010
#401
Originally Posted by smoku View Post
Nature does not provide free meal. So do people.

Ergo: You either do some portraits, concerts, speeches, etc. to fund your experiments in art, or find a wealthy patron that fancies collecting spurs of your "ingenuity".

One cannot expect the community to provide for him, just because he called oneself "an artist".
Otherwise I will make sitting on my arse an art. ;P
I think you should and deserve it. You alone have accomplished so much and are one of the person I have the most respect for on the entire online community, it kinda even feels weird to go agaisnt you...but I will always defend my point. This is the part where you and everybody else is wrong, why do you say nature doesn't provide free meals? Has a tree ever charged you for its fruits? Has a farm ever charged you for growing crops? Has a chicken requested money before putting him on your menu? No, of course not, money is nothing but a human invention. To all of you attacking my view, just try to think of a world with NO money at all! A world with nobody in power and nobody in control. A world united thus not divided by so many different aspect again humanly created by society. Stop thinking about money for one minute and think about what it could be, only then would you fully comprehend my perspective. Of course I am 100% dead wrong on ALL my exemples if you apply them to the current world situation...I already know that, but I have broaden my views and thought outside of the box.

http://www.thevenusproject.com
 
IsaacDFP is offline IsaacDFP
2011-02-19 , 15:28
Posts: 435 | Thanked: 197 times | Joined on Feb 2010
#402
The Finland Chapter:
http://www.zeitgeist.fi/joomla/

The Poland Chapter:
http://tzmpolska.org/

The American Chapter:
http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/....php?Itemid=50

People like me exist all over the world. And as much as we would love to create our own independant society, the world would not allow it. But we understand, that the current monetary system will inevitably fail, and when that time comes, the new beginning will start...or we will all die.
 
attila77 is offline attila77
2011-02-19 , 15:31
Posts: 3,319 | Thanked: 5,610 times | Joined on Aug 2008 @ Finland
#403
Originally Posted by IsaacDFP View Post
I think you should and deserve it.
Okay, so you enjoy his work and think he deserves it, but you yourself would not provide for him. Then who should ?

else is wrong, why do you say nature doesn't provide free meals?
It doesn't. It's based on a symbiotic or competitive relationship (more symbiotic in the case of the tree, and mostly competitive in the case of animals). And in the end, scarcity of resources always gets you. If there was an infinite amount of energy, an infinite amount of natural resources, all would be cool. That is also the premise for the venusproject you mention. Sadly, that is not the case (does not justify people doing stupid things, but does represent a slight hurdle), plus, the resource driven story completely foregoes the scarcity of *human* provided resources (expertise and knowledge).
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smoku is offline smoku
2011-02-19 , 15:37
Posts: 1,716 | Thanked: 3,007 times | Joined on Dec 2009 @ Warsaw, Poland
#404
Originally Posted by IsaacDFP View Post
1. There is only one monetary system in existence in our current world. [...]
Didn't we already establish common ground that we don't have Free Market in our current world?

In order to actually trying it we would need to change some basics our communities are based on. (Like implement new monetary system, change the role of the state, etc.)

But discarding an idea on the basis that we don't have means to implement it today is very shortsighted.
Progress is all about leaving prejudices like this behind and actually trying new things. Then we may say "it worked" or "it didn't work".

As of Free Market - all signs point it should work.
It worked in closed communities (like medieval city-countries) up to the point the state intervene.

The problem is that there are more people willing to enslave themselves in exchange for false feeling of security,
than people willing to take care of them by themselves.
There always was. In ancient Rome there were people wanting to sell themselves into slavery (the law forbade it though), so the master would take care of them.


P.S. The Zeitgeist movies are surely eye-openers. But also manipulative, playing on emotions. One should follow, and investigate things they mention oneself.
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IsaacDFP is offline IsaacDFP
2011-02-19 , 15:52
Posts: 435 | Thanked: 197 times | Joined on Feb 2010
#405
Originally Posted by attila77 View Post
Okay, so you enjoy his work and think he deserves it, but you yourself would not provide for him. Then who should ?
I actually do. I started recognizing him when he did his *amazing* on the PS3 controller. And I still do, specially now with his cordia project which is again amazing work

Originally Posted by attila77 View Post
If there was an infinite amount of energy, an infinite amount of natural resources, all would be cool. That is also the premise for the venusproject you mention. Sadly, that is not the case
Thank you very much for taking the time and consideration to visit the link I posted, I greatly appreciate it and view you very differently now. But the thing is Planet Earth actually has an infinite amount of energy and ressources. There's solar, wind, wave, tidal, and geothermal energy available, but because we live in this system, the corporations would never allow it. The Venus Project is the greatest enemy of the corporate world, and we are going agaisnt Titans that have been around for centaries... it will be a hard battle but I will never give up, til the last breath of my life, will continue with the first breath of my children.
 
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smoku is offline smoku
2011-02-19 , 16:04
Posts: 1,716 | Thanked: 3,007 times | Joined on Dec 2009 @ Warsaw, Poland
#406
Originally Posted by IsaacDFP View Post
This is the part where you and everybody else is wrong, why do you say nature doesn't provide free meals? Has a tree ever charged you for its fruits? Has a farm ever charged you for growing crops? Has a chicken requested money before putting him on your menu?[...]

http://www.thevenusproject.com
Having a fruit requires you either gather it or plant it. It requires significant effort from your side.
Having a chicken requires you to either hunt it or breed it. It requires significant effort.

We had a society functioning without money 10k years ago. Hunter-gatherer human societies were functioning fine for 90k years. :-)

But to build a civilization you need an effective exchange of goods. The mean to effectively exchange goods is called money.
It does not matter whether it is tangible or hypothetical. It's a matter of agreement.
Yes - it's very unfortunate that we chose to use debt as current money representation. I'm all for dropping fiat money.


Ahhh... The Venus Project. We finally know where you get all this bull*it from.
Don't you see that Venus Project is just modern incarnation of Communism? The idea is as old as the civilization. It just wears science-fiction clothes today.
This is exactly what Platon, Bakunin, Marks were talking about. Modern slaves (machines) will provide for people, so we will live in joy and happiness.

If you are really interested in post-scarcity economy, see what world OSE people are building. http://openfarmtech.org/wiki/Open_Source_Ecology
This is more realistic.
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IsaacDFP is offline IsaacDFP
2011-02-19 , 16:19
Posts: 435 | Thanked: 197 times | Joined on Feb 2010
#407
Originally Posted by smoku View Post
It requires significant effort.

We had a society functioning without money 10k years ago. Hunter-gatherer human societies were functioning fine for 90k years. :-)

Yes - it's very unfortunate that we chose to use debt as current money representation. I'm all for dropping fiat money.

Ahhh... The Venus Project"..."
This is exactly what Platon, Bakunin, Marks were talking about. Modern slaves (machines) will provide for people, so we will live in joy and happiness.

If you are really interested in post-scarcity economy, see what world OSE people are building. http://openfarmtech.org/wiki/Open_Source_Ecology
This is more realistic.
These points are all that I agree with you upon. Yes planting trees and hunting chickens requires effort, but no money. 10k years ago, also agreed, everything was working (more or less) fine (due to lack of technology and understanding at that time). You must understand I am 100% for dropped fiat money, and if we are to live in a monetary system of one sort, I was agree to go back to the gold standard, where at least you can walk your talk. No such things as credit. You either have it or you don't. That's one way it could be considered "fair". The Venus Project is a dream world, one that I will go to great lengths to achieve it, but I understand I will be going against 75% of the entire world population. It is possible to live happy and stress/work-free. I don't like the term slavery, but technology can very well help us a whole lot more than currently applicable. As for OSE, I do know about them, and completely support them. But were you aware that they did conference with Jacque Fresco, meaning they support The Venus Project idea. There exist a lot of other organization similar, such as The Vertical Farming, another interested approach.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1clRcxZS52s
Last edited by IsaacDFP; 2011-02-19 at 16:26.
 
abill_uk is offline abill_uk
2011-02-19 , 18:30
Banned | Posts: 3,412 | Thanked: 1,043 times | Joined on Feb 2010
#408
Originally Posted by ysss View Post
Regardless of the logical excuses or legal reasonings employed to avoid paying for software license/copy, i've found that those who sidestep paying for said digital goods are mostly those who cannot afford to pay for said software.

They don't do it purely out of principles.

This begs the question, whether the logic came before (principle) or after (excuse) the action? The human mind is known to be very very good to do the latter (rationalization).
I had a real good laugh at this one ysss hahahaha.

NB, especially coming from YOU hahahahaha.
Last edited by abill_uk; 2011-02-19 at 18:33.
 
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smoku is offline smoku
2011-02-20 , 10:34
Posts: 1,716 | Thanked: 3,007 times | Joined on Dec 2009 @ Warsaw, Poland
#409
Originally Posted by IsaacDFP View Post
You must understand I am 100% for dropped fiat money, and if we are to live in a monetary system of one sort, I was agree to go back to the gold standard, where at least you can walk your talk. No such things as credit. You either have it or you don't. That's one way it could be considered "fair".
We don't have to go back to gold standard anymore.
Modern mathematic gives us way to design better money. Such as http://www.bitcoin.org/
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attila77 is offline attila77
2011-02-20 , 12:46
Posts: 3,319 | Thanked: 5,610 times | Joined on Aug 2008 @ Finland
#410
But the thing is Planet Earth actually has an infinite amount of energy and ressources. There's solar, wind, wave, tidal, and geothermal energy available, but because we live in this system, the corporations would never allow it.
Resources are most definitely not infinite, there is simply a different amount of accessible materials in Earth's core. Gold and silver would be a lot better for many technical applications but we're not using them because they are a lot more scarce than aluminium (or copper). The same goes for our CPU-s, if we had infinite resources we wouldn't bother with Silicon, we would have transferred to 250GHz Gallium-Arsenide chips 20 years ago.

Energy is not infinite either (note the difference from renewable !) and, worse yet, it has a non-uniform geographical distribution and is unwieldy to transfer over large distances (except for, ironically, fossil fuels). Also, you need energy and resources to be able to produce more energy and resources - which is a vicious cycle in itself.

The third, maybe most important factor is the human resource scarcity. There is a finite number of people who are able to do certain things. There is no infinite supply of doctors, scientists, engineers, etc, and those just cannot be replaced by machines as of yet.

And what most these utopian setups conveniently forego is the *dynamic* nature of resource usage, i.e. how natural or social events change both the resource type and amount of it that is required.

Originally Posted by IsaacDFP View Post
I actually do. I started recognizing him when he did his *amazing* on the PS3 controller. And I still do, specially now with his cordia project which is again amazing work
Without intending to downplay any donations, which are more than welcome, up until now, those served more as a token sign of support, not as something that was able to keep projects/people going.
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