Thanks, GeneralAntilles, for reminding me of the wiki, where Tim Samoff added the following last June:

So I guess the decision has been made?

I saw that, but didn't like to mention it.

I think my mistake was opening this topic for discussion. It seems to have made a lot of people angry.

The proper thing to do would be to begin doing as it says in the wiki.

So I think the Council will begin using this forum for organizational purposes, announcements involving discussion and general community discussion and we'll post a link to the discussion on the maemo-community list.

Others can continue to use the maemo-community mailing list as they wish for the time being until the technical difficulties of merging the two channels are worked out.

OK, beeing away for half a day and there is various new input on the list and forum. I try to summerize (without quoting :-/).

Here are my points (again) and comments.

I never suggested to close TMO. I never spoke about US or THEM. I value (some) discussions and information on the mailing list and in fact I value (some) information in TMO, too. I do see differences in the topics on TMO and on the mailing list. However as a developer I'm interested in the mailing list (which is mostly in the mailing list, but not always, for example there are certain threads in TMO that helped me getting Knips working (somehow) under N900!) but in the same time I'm of course also a user so I'm interested in talk topic, too (for example experiences with the recent OTA updates). It *may* be that the signal to noice ratio is different (difficult to decide because different technoligy used make it difficult to judge) but that is *not* a problem for me - if I have the right technology. I value the TMO community as much as the mailing list community (and I think this is a bad sentense because I do not feel like the mailing list community but just "community"). TMO aims at a different part of the community (possibly named interested followers, but in the end naming is not important) but they are also required to get the community and the whole maemo project grow.

For aim is to browse as much information as possibly as quickly as possible. It is not only the ocmmunity forum/list I'm interested in, it is also user forums. I want that information, too.

I do see fragmentation as a problem. I also do feel myself as a victim of it for a very long time. Problems started long ago at the time people discussed my softwar ewithout me knowing it. I would like to have a solution for this now for a very long time. So the initial intention to discuss the problems is OK.

It is correct that noone (now) wants to close maemo-developers or maemo-users. So perhaps it may look like this discussion is over-reacting and we could just keep everything as it is and everything will be fine. I don't think that this is true. This topic discusses with the community list as an example a topic that is fundamental to the comunity. So this is the point in time and space where we should find a solution for, else problems will not disapear but will increase over time.

Yes I do fear that closing the community list will possibly decrease the traffic in users and developers, too. It may be possible that sometime in the future we wil have the same discussion again about that mailing list, too. But that is not my point. I'm not discussing because of my fears but because of a fundamental problem that has the be solved.

My arguments against TMO are not because it is TMO or because it is in orange instead in black o rbecause it is a forum. My problem is the inherent functionalty and the way it works. This also includes even psychological effects (like the traffic and the speed of communication which I would compare to chatting and similar online technologies suggests that everything agreed within 24 hours is an consense. I thinks this is wrong and I think a slower communication channnel like a mailing list suits better because it betters work for a world wide community with different habbits and timezones). My fundamental argumnetations is that using TMO just takes too much time (and yes, I'm generalizing from closing community mailing list, as told the fundamental problem is a more general one, see above).

I have used TMO again and again, I have posted in it. I have tested it and I know about what I'm talking about. It is not about me ignoring TMO. It is about TMO not working for me.

To be more concrete: I'm working (more than) fulltime as a professional senior developer. I have a girlfriend living 120 Km away, and we only see on weekend. That leaves around 2 - 2 1/2 hours me possibly working on my open source projects which are currently very much centered around maemo.Reading my mails takes around 1/2 hours, so that leaves around 1 1/2 - 2 hours for developing. Funny enough that is about the timespan I have to invest to get any development done, since most of my tasks need that time for a reseearch, development, test, result cycle. Having less time does not mean I'm doing nothing but makes me much more unproductive because I have to jump back into above already started development cycle/iteration, reducing my effective productivity to about 1/2 hours or even less.

Experience also shows that I have to monitor TMO regulary (nearly every day) and that I need have to spend around 1 hour or even more to scan relevant information. Experience also shows that if I stop looking at TMO for 3-4 days, I'm lost. Beeing in holiday for 2 weeks, I need around 1-2 hours (AFAIK even less, speaking of >1000 mails) to get all my mails scanned.

Getting me to switch to TMO would mean: My developing productivity would drastically decrease. I would likely switch from a productive community member to an unproductive member. The alternative would be that I would loose contact to the rest of the community (a feel I already have). IT is possible that someday I just will disappear because of that.

Because of that I urgently request the council to recognize this problem as a problem and do something against it. For me synchronizing forum and mailing list seem a valid technical solution. I do however havn't seen the council in this thread react on this wish neither did they explain why it is not here nor why it should be possible. They just seem to ignore this solution and insist on either closing or not closing the list. This will IMHO not solve the problem!

I'm still very unhappy that council members words might suggest that they may have not problem with loosing certain parts of the community that (as far as they have participated in this thread) at least I see as productive and/or longstanding members. Now droping the request and just say "OK, we keep it as it" is is too late, since as told above this discussion is just a placeholder for a more general discussion about a very, very real problem. For me this is a sign of weakness, not enough activity and not listening enough to the community. Please recognize that we are talking about a real problem you have to solve anyway (with increasing traffic in TMO, too, fragmentation is a problem even there, too!).

I'm well aware that synchronizing TMO and the mailing list will increase the traffic. So what? This is is a separate problem that can be solved by different aproaches (like more lists for more concrete topics). There is increasing traffic anyway, so we have to solve this problem anyway. I do not fear this and I will take a look a technical soolutions to handle this (like learning a few more thunderbird keyboard shortcuts :-)).

I find the idea of a weekly report about hot topics a good idea and it will help me take a look a topics I have missed, but I thinks it is only a second level solution in that it helps to ease the symtoms but it will not cure the patient. Especially because some discussion is already over when it arrives :-/

I hope I also speak for all the people that were against closing the list and instead fill the urgent request to technical solution to get the community united in their communication channels again.

I spent my insomniac hours last night with a question: why?
Why is this a problem? Why do we need a change anything? What’s the root of all this.

Framstag used the word ‘fragmentation’. Is the Maemo community fragmented? You bet it is. There’s old guard v n900bs, developers v end users, happy people v complainers, mailing list users v t.m.o. – and bloggers, tweeters and let’s not mention the IRC crowd. Are we going to require all posters have an n900 next? Cos I know a number of 770/n800/n810 users who already feel a hell of a lot more excluded by the n900-heavy atmosphere around than they do by their method of communication. Do we insist everyone be a developer in the interests of ‘unity’? Should we insist everyone serve 2 years as a probationer so that all True Members are ‘old guard’? Should we shut down IRC and require posters to sign an NTA (Non-tweeting agreement)?

In other fields we celebrate our diversity. We make it work for us: a good project needs an ideas person, a few skilled devs, a designer/artist or three, sometimes a Nokia insider, testers, more ideas, more testers and good old end-users.

The price of that diversity is that sometimes it bites us in the bum when it comes to communication. Heck, we don’t all speak the same first language – which can cause a whole other range of issues.

So rather than try to address the problems by enforcing a false uniformity, can we instead look at tackling the problems themselves? What exactly are the difficulties with people using different methods?

1) People on the mailing list don’t know what’s happening in chat. Errr. No. Sorry, I don’t buy this one. I simply can’t make myself believe that anyone on the mailing list doesn’t know that t.m.o. exists. Sure, you might have problems with of browser access for a period – say while on holiday – but I don’t think there’s anyone who can’t look in at the forum from time to time to see what’s buzzing. If people aren’t doing that it’s because they’re choosing not to. And they should retain that choice – aware of the risks.

2) People on t.m.o. don’t know what’s happening in the mailing list. This one has more credibility. Heck, I’m all over this board like a rash, and I still thought all the mailing lists were for developers. But the solution to that, surely, is to make the mailing list more visible? At the moment ‘join a mailing list’ is one line on the front page. Could it have some links on the forum? Maybe a notice at the top of the relevant forum saying ‘the subjects in this forum are also being discussed in this mailing list’. (Please not a sticky – I hate stickies!)

If the mailing list denizens are feeling “Oh Teh Noes! We don’t want that rowdy lot joining our mailing list!” I have two things to say. One is that us voluble forum types can fall strangely silent on a mailing list as it’s not our natural medium. (I may not say much but I am reading now, so you can’t insult me behind my back any more )The other is to request that you ask yourself whether you are really concerned here to keep the functionality of the mailing list or to keep that nice cosy feeling you get from the smaller Old school group where you feel you know everyone. If it’s the latter, maybe the formal maemo.org channels are not the way to do that: I’m trying very hard not to use the word ‘clique’ here, because I don’t think it does apply. But it could.

3) Decisions have been enacted based on the debate in one medium without the users of other medium being aware. WTF??? Just reading that makes me want to slap someone with a wet haddock, let alone typing it. That’s not a flaw in the system, that’s the fault of the people. Knowing that people connect to the community in diverse ways, no decision should ever be made and enacted until people in each medium have had the chance to contribute their opinion. Isn’t that part of the job of the Council? To ensure they hear all opinions before making big decisions? I assume the council are members of both – and presumably occasionally on IRC too?

“That’s inefficient and inconvenient”. Yes, it is. But community is not always efficient and convenient, because it involves people, and people make things messy. They don’t fit into tidy boxes, and forcing them to just chases them away. Sometimes inefficient and inconvenient is the price we pay for the wonderful, rich diversity we enjoy in this community.

So the proposals:
1) Encourage people on the mailing list to look in to the forum from time to time to be aware of what’s buzzing.
2) Make the mailing list more visible, and encourage more forum posters to be involved.
3) Make sure the Council don’t make decisions until people in all the media have had the opportunity to input their opinions.

All sensible stuff; however experience tells me that no matter how hard you try to facilitate there'll always be some grumbling if you don't spoon feed a discussion, and its implications, to everyone who'll be upset by the decision. Of course, you don't know who'll be upset because they didn't listen until they are :-)

I can't think of a decision offhand that the current council has made yet that really affected anything, anyway. I don't know if that's good, bad, indifferent-- or an indication of oncoming senility...

True. But both the mailing list and the forum archives. If you can point and say "You had your chance to input here" then grumble as they may they don't really have a leg to stand on. If you say "We discussed it here" and here is only one corner of the community, their grumble may be justified.

There are always people who don't listen.

The fact is, like qole said it has been decided.

The problem as I see it.

Decisions are made on the community mailing list the affects the whole community without the entire communities input.

Was this ever the intent of the community mailing list? To answer my own question, No it was not intended for that.

In fact when you subscribe to the list you will notice its name. "List for community development"

This is existed before ITT was integrated into maemo.org.

To me, the mailing list can stay, but, a big BUT. The maemo community council, should now decide what information should be put out where. I believe the mailing list should continue for development, but not for running the community. The developers on the mailing lists end up making decisions which are not reflective of the entire community. What is worse is decisions about TMO are happening on the mailing list, where many of the people as the past few days can attest, don't like the forums, don't want to use the forums.

So we have a line of separation already, apparently many list users don't want this line removed, it should then be enhanced.

We need to define, where each post should be. If it reflects the entire community it should be on talk, if it affects the development community it should be on the developers mailing list.

Nobody wants to take tools away from the development community, we want to take control of our destiny, where more people are involved in the direction of OUR community.

This is NOT a community of developers, it is a community of, developers, admins, help desk, QA analysts, lawyers, hackers, marketers, users, and many more.


Does this make sense? It still to me leaves much of happens on the mailing lists hidden to the majority of the community. I truly believe getting more information easily available would get more people involved, but I digress.


Here are some examples of how I think some of the discussions happening on the mailing list should be moved to the forums.

Mailing List
News for FOSDEM
Brainstorm data reporting
PR 1.1 community beta testing - results?
Periodic cleanup of Extras-Devel?
Community testers for Fremantle PR 1.1


Forums
Sprint task: Refine the karma system
Relaunching the Wiki Action Group
Maemo community calendar events project
#maemo IRC cloaks
Suggested colour change for visited links
Brainstorm: useful?
A business case for Maemo

-------------------------------

While this would be nice in a perfect world, I think we will always have crossover topics that need input from both mediums, even some of the ones listed above.

Ultimately the community-list will be integrated with the community section on the forums, and the so called "noise" will be louder. So it seems like the development community can wait until this happens, then complain its not the way they like it, or you can get involved and make it the way you want.

Perhaps the list can be kept, but it cannot continue to be where community decisions are made, that is not its intended use, it is for "community development" ie the developer community, not the community as a whole.

Forgive my ignorance and believe me, this really is a question from ignorance with no agenda but... if something has been decided in the past by a previous incarnation of the Council, can it then be 'undecided' by a new Council? (Much as laws get made by one government and then repealed by one of a different colour)