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stenny	2011-01-05 , 14:01
Posts: 81 \| Thanked: 114 times \| Joined on Jun 2010	#11

Originally Posted by Jaffa

I'm confused by your antagonism, which seems to be driven from a lack of information. (Although you seem to be arguing that the SSU is necessary, but also unnecessary within two sentences).

I think it's necessary but undesirable. It's basically giving Nokia carte blanche to bugger off.

Originally Posted by Jaffa

Firstly, it is being developed by the community; specifically MohammadAG and a few others. It's being openly discussed on IRC, and has been mentioned and discussed both in TMO and MWKN.

Being "mentioned" is meaningless. Where has it been discussed on TMO? Where are the IRC logs? Have you learned nothing about actual open development?

Originally Posted by Jaffa

However, most importantly, it provides a mechanism to deliver enhancements to the numerous open source components by the community, including Nokia engineers who are no longer working on them as part of their day job.

Is this mechanism the same as has been done for Diablo?

Originally Posted by Jaffa

I don't know what services you're talking about; but create such a package and either users can install it via Extras or it can be installed via the SSU. However, the scope of an SSU is to update the OS components - updating HAM or hildon-desktop via Extras is problematic.

the .deb package format has tons of "features" to address this sort of thing -- dpkg-divert, update-alternatives, etc. It is probably worth using them.

The services I'm specifically talking about are Ovi Files, Ovi Calendar, and all of the other services that either never worked with the n900, have stopped working with the n900, or have been dropped altogether.

Originally Posted by lcuk

stenny,

do you happen to know *specifically* which web links are working/not working and where they are stored (package as well as file location)
so that this information could be put nto the SSU?

I know specifically what's broken. I'll collect filesystem info and post it somewhere.

Originally Posted by Jaffa

The conduit I set up to publicise potential avenues for exploration has covered it (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6); so I'm not going to get drawn into another debate about the visibility of pieces of information to individuals who may have missed it.

I'm going to take a step back from this conversation now, and see if you can piece together the logic of throwing up two-line posts on some third-party domain nobody's ever heard of. If that's your idea of open, you've got the wrong end of the stick.

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CrashandDie	2011-01-05 , 15:21
Posts: 336 \| Thanked: 610 times \| Joined on Apr 2008 @ France	#12

Stenny,

What exactly are you so mad about? The fact that... the community is building a community SSU? Are you offended we didn't ask you personally for help?

You do realise that this is something that has been in the works for a very, very long time. I'm not saying we've been working our asses off every second of it, but I honestly believe we've been doing things when we could, as we could.

MWKN is hardly a website that nobody's ever heard of. It is most probably the single most concise source of general information regarding Maemo (and starting to take MeeGo hints as well). Upon every issue, a sticky thread that announces is posted. I started that stickyfying tradition (when I was a moderator), and I'm happy to see it continued, even after having left TMO quite some time ago.

If you had taken the time to search *a tiny bit*, you would've found that there is quite a bit of information available.

Googling "maemo SSU" yields one link to the Community SSU Notes, another to MWKN, a link to the maemo-developers ML discussing the community SSU and information regarding the #maemo-ssu IRC channel.

Googling "maemo community ssu" yields even more interesting results.

In other words: do not blame people trying to make a difference because you're not involved. Get involved.

Originally Posted by stenny

I think it's necessary but undesirable. It's basically giving Nokia carte blanche to bugger off.

Well, tough. In my case, I don't expect anything from Nokia anymore. From what I can tell, they've basically started EOL processes with regards to Maemo, and unless MeeGo steps up, the N900 is SOL.

Originally Posted by stenny

the .deb package format has tons of "features" to address this sort of thing -- dpkg-divert, update-alternatives, etc. It is probably worth using them.

We've never said we were experts regarding the Deb package format. I'm sure everyone would be happy to be pointed in the right direction.

Originally Posted by stenny

If that's your idea of open, you've got the wrong end of the stick.

If you think that's the way to talk to anyone, let alone a community member, let alone one of the most respected members of this community, then you're definitely not worth the time I invested in this post. Nor anyone else's time, for that matter.

Edit: Sorry to the mods for posting where I'm not supposed to. Rather than deleting, would it be possible to split the latest page or so that has diverted onto Community SSU trollfest into its own thread?

Last edited by CrashandDie; 2011-01-05 at 15:26.

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sjgadsby	2011-01-05 , 16:16
Posts: 5,335 \| Thanked: 8,187 times \| Joined on Mar 2007 @ Pennsylvania, USA	#13

This thread has been created from posts that were formerly a sub-thread within "Ask the Council!" Please continue discussion of questions and issues surrounding the development of the Fremantle community SSU here.

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Mentalist Traceur	2011-01-05 , 16:43
Posts: 2,225 \| Thanked: 3,822 times \| Joined on Jun 2010 @ Florida	#14

Okay, to be honest, I've never heard of mwkn.net until now either. Given Matan's contributions in the areas he has contributed, I think it's quite telling that he didn't know of it, or at least the SSU discussions, either.

HOWEVER, I personally understand why I am out of the loop. I'm neither useful to a serious SSU project, other than perhaps on the off chance that my verbal diarrhea provides a good idea here/there, and I haven't taken too much time to look.

So the question is, are the people *****ing actually *****ing because it's something they tried to keep themselves in the loop on, or because they are so great of contributors that they had good reason to expect someone would contact them about it as it got off the ground, OR is this just people turning their surprise at just finding out about this into anger because, well, they're humans and humans have this remarkable propensity for irrational anger?

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	GeneralAntilles	2011-01-06 , 03:34
	Posts: 5,478 \| Thanked: 5,222 times \| Joined on Jan 2006 @ St. Petersburg, FL	#15

Originally Posted by Mentalist Traceur

So the question is, are the people *****ing actually *****ing because it's something they tried to keep themselves in the loop on, or because they are so great of contributors that they had good reason to expect someone would contact them about it as it got off the ground, OR is this just people turning their surprise at just finding out about this into anger because, well, they're humans and humans have this remarkable propensity for irrational anger?

From my observations on past behavior. The third option, and then some. . . .

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	mthmob	2011-01-06 , 04:13
	Posts: 378 \| Thanked: 206 times \| Joined on Dec 2009 @ Denmark	#16

Originally Posted by Matan

If a restaurant is open for one hour every week, but they don't say which hour, it is hardly public.

Relax friend

this IRC resturant is open 24/7, go in and discuss all you want mate.

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	Jaffa	2011-01-06 , 15:34
	Posts: 2,535 \| Thanked: 6,681 times \| Joined on Mar 2008 @ UK	#17

Originally Posted by Matan

If a restaurant is open for one hour every week, but they don't say which hour, it is hardly public.

As you'll know that a lot of discussion happened in the thread "Fremantle Community SSU" on maemo-developers (a better home for in-depth technical discussion about the vagaries of HAM), which you participated in. Many of your questions then were about policy - and, as stated above, this hasn't yet been discussed (let alone decided).

OTTOMH, some of the big policy questions to be decided are:

Who ultimately owns the CSSU?
- Council?
How will included improvements be decided? (Matan)
- Will there be an inclusive policy - every improvement that someone is willing to work on will be included - or will there be a gatekeeper that will decide what to include? (Matan)
- Is the scope limited to improving packages which are included by Nokia in the OS; or should it grow to include "useful" stuff?
- Should wholesale replacement of apps (such as Media Player) be done with open source, feature- & UI-compatible versions; if available?
How will testing be organised?
- Positive
- Negative
- Regression
- Installation from scratch
- Upgrade from previous version
How will it be advertised?
How will it be supported?
- Bugzilla
- IRC?
- Forum

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	Jaffa	2011-01-06 , 15:40
	Posts: 2,535 \| Thanked: 6,681 times \| Joined on Mar 2008 @ UK	#18

Originally Posted by Mentalist Traceur

Okay, to be honest, I've never heard of mwkn.net until now either.

I suggest that anyone interested in the Maemo community reads Planet Maemo. MWKN is syndicated there (as well as TMO, forum.meego.com, Twitter, mailing lists, ...). You can read more background on why I thought MWKN was necessary in the wiki page (and the corresponding threads on Talk and on maemo-community).

Given Matan's contributions in the areas he has contributed, I think it's quite telling that he didn't know of it, or at least the SSU discussions, either.

See above. Matan has been involved in several SSU discussions, including here on TMO and on maemo-developers. I'm sure he didn't mean to imply he wasn't aware of the SSU work.

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	Jaffa	2011-01-06 , 15:40
	Posts: 2,535 \| Thanked: 6,681 times \| Joined on Mar 2008 @ UK	#19

Originally Posted by lardman

Is a patched kernel going to be included to fix the CPU speed bug when charging?

That's a question for Mohammad; however, at the moment, I don't believe there's a kernel installed. You can see the packages in their gitorious home: http://gitorious.org/community-ssu - although I'm not quite sure that includes everything (e.g. there's no Modest in there with the proper quoting patches included from Bugzilla)

There's been some discussion (including with Nokians at the conference) about including a kernel. kernel-power is an obvious candidate, but without pulling in any of the settings utilities etc. Whether or not that includes the CPU speed bug fix, I don't know. As kernel-power can be installed for numerous reasons, I'm strongly of the opinion that the various user-friendly tools which allow overclocking need to display prominent warnings when exceeding 600MHz, even if they don't pull in kernel-power themselves.

Originally Posted by stenny

the .deb package format has tons of "features" to address this sort of thing -- dpkg-divert, update-alternatives, etc. It is probably worth using them.

Indeed, dpkg-divert is used in community-ssu-enabler to put a shim around /usr/libexec/apt-worker.

The problem with upgrading the Nokia components from Extras, and why an SSU is required, is that Application Manager (i.e. HAM) will not upgrade packages from different package "domains" which have different trust levels.

One of the primary tasks of community-ssu-enabler is to add the repository at an appropriate trust level, so that HAM will allow it to upgrade "system" packages. (In addition to installing the repo and GPG key).

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	Jaffa	2011-01-06 , 19:32
	Posts: 2,535 \| Thanked: 6,681 times \| Joined on Mar 2008 @ UK	#20

Originally Posted by Jaffa

OTTOMH, some of the big policy questions to be decided are: [...]

I've put that list on the wiki, but wikis are bad places to have discussions. I'd suggest one of maemo-developers, maemo-community or talk.maemo.org would be best.

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