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SD69	2009-01-12 , 15:58
Posts: 1,513 \| Thanked: 2,248 times \| Joined on Mar 2006 @ US	#291

Originally Posted by ragnar

Then again, to me it's... odd that to say that you can know that you won't like the changes before even seeing them. There can be great touch UI's and poor touch UI's, just as there are great and poor non-touch UI's.

If somebody feels that no touch UI can be great, then I guess we can agree to disagree and leave it at that. If somebody feels that you can do both at the same time on the same device, get the best of both worlds, based on my experience I say that it isn't so... But that's a great topic for discussion, it's not a given or an absolute fact.

I like touch UI, but I don't like the Apple UI. And I don't like embedded eye candy - where selecting an item launches an unavoidable three layer translucent 3D animation that looks pretty but accomplishes nothing. I haven't said that I won't like the NIT UI changes, but I am concerned that we may go past the point of no return if there is an all-touch UI and no support for the auxiliary HW keys.

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	Mara	2009-01-12 , 15:58
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Originally Posted by Snoshrk

Maybe we could get Buglabs together with Nokia to have a modular device. That way you could pick and choose / plug 'n play the iinput that you prefer.

Hmmm... maybe Bluetooth remote control pod, like Wii remote... so if/when you need hardware buttons just pick that pod in hand and there you go... Great to remote control that MP3-player in pocket while jogging in treadmill...

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	daperl	2009-01-12 , 16:01
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Originally Posted by ragnar

Then again, to me it's... odd that to say that you can know that you won't like the changes before even seeing them. There can be great touch UI's and poor touch UI's, just as there are great and poor non-touch UI's.

The n800 has 12 buttons and a touch screen. Let's, for arguments sake, say that I've used my n800 as an "internet device" for 8 hours a day for a year and I still think it's excellent (not perfect) and there's currently nothing else out there that I would replace it with. Also during that time period let's say that my friends and I took the opportunity to share and sample each other's mobile technology and also other mobile technology offerings. So, for me, I think it's odd that you think something's odd. I've poked and I've prodded and I've rejected. I don't see why you're so perplexed.

If somebody feels that no touch UI can be great, then I guess we can agree to disagree and leave it at that. If somebody feels that you can do both at the same time on the same device, get the best of both worlds, based on my experience I say that it isn't so... But that's a great topic for discussion, it's not a given or an absolute fact.

As others have alluded to before, usage can have 3 equally important modes, even if these modes change rapidly:

external buttons only
stylus only
external buttons and stylus in concert

So, agreeing to disagree is all good, just to the point where you remove my 12 buttons. Then, not so good.

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	Texrat	2009-01-12 , 16:06
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Originally Posted by Benson

From Texrat's take, (since he's "on our side", and has insider knowledge of at least the next tablet), I infer what I'd strongly suspected all along: the next tablet, at least, will still have a dpad. So I guess we can resume our pleasant flamewar after the RX-51 is out, when next our discussion turns to hardware speculation.

Careful with interpretations of my posts wrt to the RX-51 device. Yes, I have seen its data sheet and the only thing I've shared from that is something along the lines of "WOW" and "hee hee hee". Don't assume there is or isn't a d-pad based on my posts.

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SD69	2009-01-12 , 16:07
Posts: 1,513 \| Thanked: 2,248 times \| Joined on Mar 2006 @ US	#295

continuation of auxiliary hardware input, and that could certainly be a trackball (I like them too) or even the often-requested scrolling slider. Or any number of variations.

Originally Posted by ragnar

And those will be supported, if they are in the devices. So everything is cool.

Well, that is unexpected good news. A thousand thanks!

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	Texrat	2009-01-12 , 16:09
	Posts: 11,700 \| Thanked: 10,045 times \| Joined on Jun 2006 @ North Texas, USA	#296

Originally Posted by Mara

Hmmm... maybe Bluetooth remote control pod, like Wii remote... so if/when you need hardware buttons just pick that pod in hand and there you go... Great to remote control that MP3-player in pocket while jogging in treadmill...

Ah! Stupid me-- THANKS Mara!

I had completely forgotten one of my other suggestions: support for add-on input devices. Bluetooth is certainly one viable mode, and so is usb.

I had envisioned a tablet that supports a slide-on sleeve with buttons for gaming. THAT would be my ideal solution. With that approach one form factor (if properly designed) could support infinite configurations.

Win-win-win.

After all, look at (again) Nintendo's success in that area...

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Last edited by Texrat; 2009-01-12 at 17:42.

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	Benson	2009-01-12 , 16:16
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Originally Posted by SD69

I like touch UI, but I don't like the Apple UI. And I don't like embedded eye candy - where selecting an item launches an unavoidable three layer translucent 3D animation that looks pretty but accomplishes nothing.

Wrong! It accomplishes something: hiding the delay from starting programs/loading data. This makes users think their device is responding faster. And for consistency's sake, you apply it everywhere, even for those things without substantial delay.

And that's the sort of junk that UI experts specialize in, leading me to conclude that the less UI experts are involved with a project, the more usable it will be.
^ General statement ^ (Not intended as a diss on Ragnar or Maemo UI.)

Originally Posted by Mara

Hmmm... maybe Bluetooth remote control pod, like Wii remote... so if/when you need hardware buttons just pick that pod in hand and there you go... Great to remote control that MP3-player in pocket while jogging in treadmill...

Something like this, but BT?

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	Johnx	2009-01-12 , 16:28
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Originally Posted by Benson

And that's the sort of junk that UI experts specialize in, leading me to conclude that the less UI experts are involved with a project, the more usable it will be.

This is the sort of thing that happens when no UI experts are involved:

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	allnameswereout	2009-01-12 , 16:38
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Remember not all hardware keyboards are equal...

For me it is impossible to do serious console or chat on a Nokia E51 with a keypad or (hypothetically) a device with virtual keyboard such as N800 or a Sharp Zaurus SL C1000 with a bad hardware keyboard.

With Nokia E71 and Nokia N810 I can do it.

Originally Posted by lma

Has something like this been done?

This is a core aspect of UI designing: testing the UI out on users. Although usually happens with mockups or much later, after the design. Err, I mean, after internal testing when developers get a preview

Originally Posted by danramos

[...]lack of TWO SD slots (really, who wants microSD? And only one?).[...]

We discussed this elsewhere.

Once my tablet has 32 GB SD it will become my MP3 player replacing my Iriver H340.

But it is not as if this is a necessary for most people, and its not as if I really need all those GBs. They're part of lazyness.

I bought the N810 for its GPS (a mistake) and hardware keyboard (a sound choice; especially as compliment to phone or replacement for laptop).

Perhaps one has to realize there are different hardware demands. Differentiate them in various groups which make sense and serve different types of groups. However, do not assume people buy both devices.

Originally Posted by daperl

As others have alluded to before, usage can have 3 equally important modes, even if these modes change rapidly:
external buttons only

stylus only

external buttons and stylus in concert

So, agreeing to disagree is all good, just to the point where you remove my 12 buttons. Then, not so good.

Uh, nope. You're forgetting finger.

Originally Posted by benny1967

I simply can't follow you any more.
a) I never talked about optimizing for fingers. On the contrary, I said a finger UI usually fails and therefore shouldn't be considered much.

Fremantle will be optimized for finger instead of stylus.

b) I also don't say that different parts of the UI should be optimized for different input methods. Why make everything so complicated?

Because else you have half-baked design decisions.

Most graphical GUIs I know can be used with hardware keys (you can use Windows/Gnome/... more efficiently with the keyboard than with the mouse). This includes all versions of maemo so far: There's nothing "optimized for stylus" or "optimized for D-Pad", still you can use both to cotrol the device. (And you can also control the whole UI with a bluetooth keyboard without even touching it... I wonder how this would work if the UI wasn't made to accept hardware keys.)

Windows NT/GNOME is of no concern in these comparisons because they are not mobile embedded UI.

The hype will vanish, I'm sure.

Why are you sure.

Also, people do get irritated by their jPhones etc. the longer they use them.

Why? How big %?

Also, people tend to stand up for their own decisions even though they prove wrong afterwards.

People tend to work around them sooner or later; e.g. jailbreaking. Costs time and effort though.

And finally: Yes, we do see touch devices returned in large numbers when factors like these don't play a role.

We see this phenomenom at large? Please, some references.

Like when employees were given touch screen devices (HTC) as company phones and returned them in favor of the alternative, a plain SonyEricsson K550i.

Sure. Some people only want a phone to phone and SMS with.

In any case, I do not deny that a hardware_key device can be sufficient or can be good. I assert a finger-based touchscreen device can be good, but it is not something you like to hear or are even able to imagine, it seems.

... all valid points for not having a touch only UI but having a choice. People are different. Let's not force them all into the same way of using the UI.

You give up very quickly. I say: allow callibration of fingers.

As for choice, perhaps some device like N800, relatively cheap, with new hardware (OMAP3) but without fancy HD camera or HSPA. But then again, you MUST have a stylus mode. You MUST optimize your GUI for stylus usage.

I'm 41 years old and had a lot of UIs... from my Atari 400, MS-DOS, Windows (1.0, 3.11, 95, 98/Me, NT, 2000, XP, Vista), KDE, Gnome, Fluxbox, OS2005-2008, a number of phones by different manufacturers, VCRs and DVD players,...

Several changes in UI in OS200x were stylus and finger-related changes.

Yes, it may take a few hours or so to feel comfortable and at home, but if a UI requires people to adjust their muscles and do some training as for painting... and then, some will still never learn it, while other happen to "have a gift"... then there's something seriously wrong with it. Any UI has to adapt to the people who use it, not the other way round.

It merely means not everyone is suitable for every device. Not every body type is made for swimming, hiking or marathon. While a hiker can run a marathon, he'll never be good at it because it isn't his quality; even after much training.

... again, I'm completely lost here. I don't understand what you're talking about. Why should a scollbar "know"? It didn't in OS2005 and it was fine the way it was.

It only has to if you want to support both a stylus optimized UI and a finger optimized UI.

.... click on an image to save it or copy its location. View HTML source (of page or frame or selection). Open frame in new window. Open link in new window/tab. Perform some action to trigger what's "mouseover" on a desktop. Zoom in/out. View image properies. View link properties. .... Quite few things to accomplish when all you have for input is the press of a finger.

Zoom in/out are hardware keys for, and double click already zooms in and out. Try it in Fennec. The other options, minus opening new tab, is not something I like to do when I'm on tablet so it should be hidden away or not be part of feature set at all. Less is sometimes more.

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Last edited by allnameswereout; 2009-01-12 at 16:54.

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	daperl	2009-01-12 , 17:00
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Originally Posted by Johnx

Some laptops have HSPA modems too these days: That doesn't make them phones.

Thank you, this is what I needed to bring home my point.

The question for Nokia has never been how the n900 will communicate, but what purpose it should have. Things at this forum went as far as a Nokia-sponsored poll as to what to call this next device. So here's what I think:

This type of device, the "internet tablet", is having an identity crises as it's being squashed between netbooks and really smart phones. Before the netbook came out, this "internet tablet" was a good distance away (price and size) from tablets (you know, those swiveling things) and it looked like there was a future. Now, throw in some netbooks, some really smart phones and some vaporware like Pandora and the spectrum smears immediately. These MID's or "internet tablet's" have now been forced to run to the best non-overlapping corner they can find: the "multi-media internet thingy" (the Archos 5 ilk). Gross.

So, for foot print, here's what we've got in order of size and power:

laptops
tablets (swiveling things)
netbooks (some now swiveling)
MID's, "internet tablets", "multi-media internet thingys", whatever
really smart phones
smart phones
phones

And for wireless communication protocols in these devices, here's what we've got in order of ubiquity:

GSM
CDMA
HSPA
WiMAX (not really)
WiFi
Bluetooth

Nokia is a phone company. They're doing exactly what they're suppose to be doing: finding a solid home for their phones. They were able to take "internet tablet" chances when netbooks, really smart phones and other "multi-media internet thingys" didn't exist, but that gadgetscape is gone, and all that is left for them to do is compete in the really smart phone market. I get it; but I'm a geek, and thus, I don't like it. F*ck, I'm back cheering-on the Pandora. But without a cash infusion they seem doomed. My stupid fantasy is that Mark Shuttleworth would find himself bored today and help them out.

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