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Poll: Which kind of devices is the real competitor?
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Which kind of devices is the real competitor?

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Karel Jansens's Avatar
Karel Jansens is offline Karel Jansens
2008-09-22 , 22:25
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#51
Originally Posted by fpp View Post
Anyway Karel is now indelibly stamped, as he was mentioned by name and in writing during one of the presentations in Berlin, so it's not as if he can pretend innocence now...
Wha--?? WTF!!??
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SD69 is offline SD69
2008-09-22 , 22:59
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#52
Originally Posted by allnameswereout View Post
An example for this is a SIM lock. This part cannot be open source because this lock is necessary in the current ecosystem. The way phones are sold demands this. I don't like this either, and the protection is laughable, but it exists. Nokia cannot afford to change this (overnight). If you don't like this behaviour I'd say that right now Nokia is not the right corporation to do business with.
I don't understand what you are saying here. The SIM technology is merely an authentication tool and was part of the early GSM specifications and is widely available at little to no cost. (This is to be contrasted with the CableCard authentication technology in CATV systems which is so extremely proprietary that you can't get a graphics card with CableCard input even for a standard Wintel PC and even if you are willing to pay a hefty royalty.) It is the cellular carriers who leverage SIM and similar technology to lock in customers to their network. Are you confusing open source with open access?

Yes, this is a necessary part of the cellular ecosystem which Nokia probably wishes away more than you or I (and certainly costs them more lost profits than you or I) but as a non-emotional corporate entity accepts as a commercial reality. Secondly, if you don't like SIM lock and similar UE-network lock-ins, I believe this is a reason to support Nokia rather than shun them. In the US, they have far and away the largest amount of non-subsidized device sales revenue (excluding pre-paid phones) and have been pushing non-carrier distribution networks. They have opened stand alone stores and pushed their non-subsidized N-series based primarily on competitive product superiority. No similar effort like this by Samsung or Motorola or SE and even Apple accepted a carrier lock-in. Some lower tier device OEMs (who have no hope of independently gaining market share) shamelessly suck at the carrier teat. The NIT and its support for SIP and VoIP is noteworthy as an attempted end around the cellular carrier toll booth.
 
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allnameswereout is offline allnameswereout
2008-09-22 , 23:15
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#53
Originally Posted by SD69 View Post
I don't understand what you are saying here. The SIM technology is merely an authentication tool and was part of the early GSM specifications and is widely available at little to no cost.
And it is easily cracked (unlocked). In my country it is legal to unlock 1 year after purchase of the device.

I was trying to play the devil's advocate here. Apparently failed. For sophisticated arguments you have to wait for Karel, or read Dan's arguments & links, or...

It is the cellular carriers who leverage SIM and similar technology to lock in customers to their network. Are you confusing open source with open access?
No, I'm not, although I can see the overlapping ideology between being against a vendor lock-in and being against proprietary software or proprietary standards.

Personally, I hate proprietary standards the most because these provide a basis for proprietary software and vendor lock-in.

[...]

The NIT and its support for SIP and VoIP is noteworthy as an attempted end around the cellular carrier toll booth.
There are some valid concerns regarding scalibility though.
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johnkzin is offline johnkzin
2008-09-22 , 23:28
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#54
Originally Posted by allnameswereout View Post
And it is easily cracked (unlocked). In my country it is legal to unlock 1 year after purchase of the device.

I was trying to play the devil's advocate here. Apparently failed. For sophisticated arguments you have to wait for Karel, or read Dan's arguments & links, or...
Your "SIM lock" argument didn't fail for lack of sophistication, it failed because it's wrong. Getting legal unlocked GSM phones is almost trivial. Nokia doesn't need to "change this overnight", it's already a done thing.

As I said in another thread, I have 3 Nokia GSM phones. Only 1 of them was purchased from a carrier, with lock and contract. The other two are unlocked and have no contract (and one of those is the one I actually use).
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Texrat is offline Texrat
2008-09-22 , 23:55
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#55
Originally Posted by benny1967 View Post
Again, it's simply wrong to assume that everything that's free (or "open source" or whatever you call it) must not be used in a commercial context. Having the big companies use free software is a victory for the free software movement, not a defeat.
I think I just heard the mother of all bells being rung.
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fpp is offline fpp
2008-09-23 , 12:27
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#56
Originally Posted by Karel Jansens View Post
Wha--?? WTF!!??
Yup. I bear witness :-)
 
gemniii42 is offline gemniii42
2008-09-23 , 12:51
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#57
To answer the q of the thread title, I think the OPP type with a rollup screen is what I view as a competitor for my $$, unless they can come up with a voice recognizing, 3D holographic projecting, telephonic watch that also does realtime teletransport.
However I think the unLinuxed masses, using dirty windows will go with the mobile phone type.
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SD69 is offline SD69
2008-09-23 , 13:59
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#58
Originally Posted by allnameswereout View Post
I can see the overlapping ideology between being against a vendor lock-in and being against proprietary software or proprietary standards.

Personally, I hate proprietary standards the most because these provide a basis for proprietary software and vendor lock-in.



There are some valid concerns regarding scalibility though.
The idealogies behind vendor lock-in and proprietary software are quite different. Vendor lock-in is per se anti-competitive. This may make your head explode but it is possible to have open source DRM (research PGP encryption technology)

Your scalability link is off the mark too. HSDPA and HSUPA are part of the cellular carrier network.
 
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allnameswereout is offline allnameswereout
2008-09-23 , 14:29
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#59
Originally Posted by SD69 View Post
The idealogies behind vendor lock-in and proprietary software are quite different. Vendor lock-in is per se anti-competitive.
Nowhere did I state they're the same. I said they are related to each other. Lets take MS Office as example. Ignoring the debacles about their new 'open format' imagine the previous versions (2000, 2003, etcetera). This is an example of proprietary software using a proprietary, closed standard, creating a vendor lock-in. If the file format (the standard) was open, others could have implemented it (potentially, open source) therefore reducing and/or mitigating the vendor lock-in, and allowing an alternative to the proprietary software. Converesy, had MS Office been open source, but the file format unspecified, one could still implement an alternative reading the source code therefore reducing and/or mitigrating a (potential) vendor lock-in.

Bright folks at Sun have proved they understand this vital aspect. Unfortunately, many didn't...

This may make your head explode but it is possible to have open source DRM (research PGP encryption technology)
No, it doesn't work. It either works the way PGP is intended to, or one person who wishes to shares their key providing all people read access to the content. Every key can be cracked just like every lock can be picked. And in the case of software, its usually a piece of cake.

Your scalability link is off the mark too. HSDPA and HSUPA are part of the cellular carrier network.
no comprendos.
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Karel Jansens's Avatar
Karel Jansens is offline Karel Jansens
2008-09-23 , 15:38
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#60
Originally Posted by fpp View Post
Yup. I bear witness :-)
OK, now I just need to know; what kind of presentation was that? "a Sample of the Kind of Customer We Do Not Want"?
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