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2008-09-29
, 14:16
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Posts: 1,878 |
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Joined on Sep 2007
@ San Jose, CA
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#42
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Originally Posted by ragnar
If your only tool is a hammer, then the world looks like a nail.
I'm not at all a fan of mixing HW key and touch screen usage on a UI.
If you only have a touch screen, then you're forced to solve certain problems in a manner that may not be actually be optimal, nor even close to optimal, for that form of input. For example, virtual keyboards -- a touchscreen implementation for solving the "how do I create text input", yet it's an incredibly poor way to implement that goal.
If the device provides choice, then you have multiple tools for accomplishing a given task, and you can pick which device that best suits that task. Yes, software designers might do a lousy job, but IMO it's better for them to have a choice to make bad decisions than for the user to not have a choice to use the best tool for a given situation. You solve the software designer problem by having well written style guides and suggestions, a well developed set of standard applications which shows the right way to solve the problem on that device, and an on-going effort to push that forward (when none of the apps available do their job according to the style guidelines, make one that does, and thus raises the bar for the app makers, both the ones that want to make that same type of app, and the ones who want to be stylistically compatible with the base-line of the platform).
For NIT designers to complain about poor style consistency, and apps with poor adherence to a given style, they need to have put in the work on putting that infrastructure into place (style guides, rich set of style implementations for app designers to both leverage and compete with, etc.). Where's the solid finger friendly email application? Modest may be better than what was there before, but it's still not something I'd hold up as an example of great finger/touch-screen design. Where's the solid finger friendly PIM suite? Where's the finger friendly web browser? For NIT designers to preach about "we should eliminate hard buttons from the design, for design purity", then they must first be an example of that design purity, not an example of the design problem. Lead from the front, and lead by example.
And, even then, it's still going to come down to "there are times when the best/fastest information input will be typing". Or, because it's an _internet_ tablet, it's going to be using web pages and web apps that were also designed for desktops, and are thus either keyboard focused or have shortcuts that make input much faster with a keyboard. In those cases, not being able to use hard buttons becomes a limitation.
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2008-09-29
, 14:22
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Posts: 1,878 |
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Joined on Sep 2007
@ San Jose, CA
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#43
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Originally Posted by SD69
It's not an either-or. It's a "which is best for a given situation". I have an N810 _and_ a Bluetooth keyboard. Pulling out my iGo while I'm standing on a bus and just want to do a few quick things that involve typing? If I am forced to choose between a virtual keyboard and an external keyboard, I'll instead "think outside the box" and buy a different device. One that suits my needs, instead of forcing me into artificially constrained input mechanisms that don't cover my use cases.
Absolutely not. I bought a stowaway bt keyboard and the integration was surprisingly good. And the 810 version was just a different version for people with different preferences, or who for some reason, are'nt willing to try the separate keyboard.
If I'm in a meeting and wanting to take notes, or need to do a LOT of typing, that's when I pull out the iGo.
Choose the best tool for the job. Give your users a rich set of tools to choose from.
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2008-09-29
, 14:30
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Posts: 14 |
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#44
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Originally Posted by johnkzin
Give your users a rich set of tools to choose from.
that's kind of my feeling on the whole thing.
thanks for the response to my first thread too everybody
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2008-09-29
, 15:22
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Posts: 3,841 |
Thanked: 1,079 times |
Joined on Nov 2006
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#45
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If the devices had 5 extra keys on the top, as Ragnar suggested (although in a sarcastic mode I believe), playing Duke Nukem would have been easier on the N800. And if it didn't have the d-pad it wouldn't be possible to play it at all.
Of course this is an application that has simply been recompiled for the N8x0, with very few adjustments. But isn't that how we want things to be? It should be possible to use software that hasn't been specially designed for some futuristic special magic display. We don't want to be limited to Nokia Approved (tm) software. The internet tablets were meant to be flexible, open devices.
Of course this is an application that has simply been recompiled for the N8x0, with very few adjustments. But isn't that how we want things to be? It should be possible to use software that hasn't been specially designed for some futuristic special magic display. We don't want to be limited to Nokia Approved (tm) software. The internet tablets were meant to be flexible, open devices.
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N800/OS2007|N900/Maemo5
-- Metalayer-crawler delenda est.
-- Current state: Fed up with everything MeeGo.
N800/OS2007|N900/Maemo5
-- Metalayer-crawler delenda est.
-- Current state: Fed up with everything MeeGo.
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2008-09-29
, 16:32
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Posts: 861 |
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Joined on Jan 2008
@ Nomadic
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#46
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Originally Posted by TA-t3
This is why different form factors should exist, so that flexible and open remain constants, and innovation can come from users and developers alike.
Of course this is an application that has simply been recompiled for the N8x0, with very few adjustments. But isn't that how we want things to be? It should be possible to use software that hasn't been specially designed for some futuristic special magic display. We don't want to be limited to Nokia Approved (tm) software. The internet tablets were meant to be flexible, open devices.
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2008-09-29
, 19:18
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Posts: 1,513 |
Thanked: 2,248 times |
Joined on Mar 2006
@ US
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#47
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Originally Posted by johnkzin
First off, it was Nokia UI designers who came up with the idea of supplementing the small touch screen with a few hard keys, and who led "from the front" that way, keeping that design in the NITs. There was a good early example (7710) of using that design, but it has fallen out of the collective consiousness among the excitement of maemo development.
For NIT designers to complain about poor style consistency, and apps with poor adherence to a given style, they need to have put in the work on putting that infrastructure into place (style guides, rich set of style implementations for app designers to both leverage and compete with, etc.). Where's the solid finger friendly email application? Modest may be better than what was there before, but it's still not something I'd hold up as an example of great finger/touch-screen design. Where's the solid finger friendly PIM suite? Where's the finger friendly web browser? For NIT designers to preach about "we should eliminate hard buttons from the design, for design purity", then they must first be an example of that design purity, not an example of the design problem. Lead from the front, and lead by example.
And, even then, it's still going to come down to "there are times when the best/fastest information input will be typing". Or, because it's an _internet_ tablet, it's going to be using web pages and web apps that were also designed for desktops, and are thus either keyboard focused or have shortcuts that make input much faster with a keyboard. In those cases, not being able to use hard buttons becomes a limitation.
It is not the NIT designers (at least to my knowledge although I wasn't at the summit) who are preaching about removing hard keys, but a few people on this site (who I am trying to address). My understanding is that they pondered openly about a future, more finger friendly UI, but that does not at all necessitate removal of the hard keys AFAIK.
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2008-09-29
, 19:53
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Joined on Mar 2007
@ Pennsylvania, USA
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#48
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Originally Posted by SD69
I'm curious, do you know who ragnar is?
It is not the NIT designers (at least to my knowledge although I wasn't at the summit) who are preaching about removing hard keys, but a few people on this site (who I am trying to address).
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2008-09-29
, 20:11
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Posts: 4,930 |
Thanked: 2,272 times |
Joined on Oct 2007
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#49
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Originally Posted by ragnar
So it would be a better idea for the designers to think that they do _not_ know the use cases?
Attempting to create a device that tries to please every use case known now and later will really please nobody. "Oh put a d-pad there... No, put two d-pads there! Put 5 keys on the top! Just in case... Somebody might come up with some use for them."
I'd also say that real buttons are a poor substitute for the future technologies (not yet available) with proper haptics and visuals.
Originally Posted by igor
I read these, and found myself chuckling at the way they fit neatly into stereotypes. Although as a typically engineer, I find myself more in agreement with (and perhaps beyond) Igor's viewpoint...
I'd say that there's a lot of hype around them and I find it scary since these technologies heavily rely on power hungry interaction elements.
In N800 times I remember a huge fight with UI designers about the single LED and the fact that it was going to be abused:
- far from optimal hw design would generate lot of CPU activity for blinking the LED
- the user was expected to be some sort of telegraph operator to tell one pattern from the other
- because of the low pass effect from the mechanics, patterns that on paper were significantly different were ending up to look like thery were all the same
So that was just a simple and apparently harmless LED; I wonder what will happen once we start dealing with stuff which actually _moves_ or is expected to light large screen surfaces - or both - hence requiring much more power.
Originally Posted by Eastern Standard Tribe, Cory Doctorow
"Weren't you worried he'd rip off your ideas and not pay you anything for them?" Szandor's spellbound by the story, unconsciously unrolling and re-rolling an Ace bandage.
"Didn't even cross my mind. Of course, he tried to do just that, but it wasn't any good -- they were engineers; they had no idea how normal human beings interact with their environments. The stuff wasn't self-revealing -- they added a million cool features and a manual an inch thick. After prototyping for six months, they called me in and offered me a two-percent royalty on any products I designed for them."
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2008-09-29
, 20:17
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Posts: 1,878 |
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Joined on Sep 2007
@ San Jose, CA
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#50
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Originally Posted by SD69
I was replying to one of them who was doing exactly that.
It is not the NIT designers (at least to my knowledge although I wasn't at the summit) who are preaching about removing hard keys, but a few people on this site (who I am trying to address).
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some of the comments simply fail to take into account the unigue device characteristics of the NIT. Within the mobile touchscreen category, personally I prefer the functionality focused design of the NIT to the barren touchscreen style of the iphone. If you want an iphone, go buy an iphone; the NIt should aspire to better than the iphone not to imitate it.