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2009-04-14
, 17:25
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Posts: 861 |
Thanked: 734 times |
Joined on Jan 2008
@ Nomadic
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#142
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Something I've not seen, and would like to know, as an fyi more than anything, has there been anything in terms of standarzied gesture support going into M5? For example, the gestures used in Mauku seem like a great starting point and something where the stylus/finger argument would meet at a nice compromise. Would M5 be utilzing these, or is this something on the side (for now)?
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2009-04-14
, 21:22
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Posts: 3,524 |
Thanked: 2,958 times |
Joined on Oct 2007
@ Delta Quadrant
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#143
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Originally Posted by TheTree
*Stands up and applauds*
It seems as though there are two sides to the stylus/finger debate: Those who want a finger-optimized UI for convenience and those who want a stylus-based UI for data density and desktop similarities. And then someone mentioned sticking a trackpad on one of these things...
I say we already have a trackpad, it just isn't used as such - usually.
Pardon me while I go on a tangent here. Wacom Pen tablets have this interesting feature: they can be used in pen mode or mouse mode. In mouse mode, it acts like a normal computer mouse. Cursor movement is relative. In pen mode, cursor movement is absolute. That is, each point on the tablet refers to a specific point on the screen.
Touch screens are almost always absolute. Tap on the screen somewhere and a click is registered there. However, there are exceptions, including at least one on the Internet Tablets: Bluemaemo. Bluemaemo can be used to control your Windows or Linux desktop with the touchscreen on your tablet acting like a normal trackpad.
Why not allow people to use the touchscreen as a trackpad for the tablet itself? Most apps can be easily finger optimized and used in a normal, absolute mode. But for data-dense apps like gnumeric, the touchscreen could be switched into a relative cursor movement mode, with a visible cursor.
Perhaps someone with far superior programming knowledge than me could hack something llike this up for Diablo.
And we now return to your regularly scheduled program.
Its rare to have articulated such an elegant solution. You Sir (Madam?) are special.
I was actually thinking that it would be a cool hack to have a slot in a notebook computer for the tablet, where it could double as a utility screen and a touch pad. But using the device as a touch pad for its own cursor is brilliant!
Kudos.
Anyone care to code a quick test app, so that we might play with this idea?
YARR!
}:^)~
Kiggidy Corrupt
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2009-04-14
, 21:53
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Posts: 4,783 |
Thanked: 1,253 times |
Joined on Aug 2007
@ norway
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#144
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another thing is the definition of mobile. some think og it as riding a car, buss or similar.
others see it more as a variant of "portable". as in something you carry in your pocket and pull out when sitting at a table or standing still.
under the first definition, anything that cant ve done with one hand will be troublesome, as any bump will have hands/arms moving in all kinds of directions.
under the second, using two hands is perfectly valid, as there will rarely be raandom bumps to deal with.
and i agree on the above idea of relative and absolute, as a relative interface would allow one handed operation.
for instance, my phones built in browser has a pointer now, but one that jumps to "hotspots" in proximity when a direction is quickly pushed.
this allows for easy operation with one hand, even tho there are still some niggles.
i know nokia tried something similar with the early browsers of the tablets. but the flaw there was that it started at the top of the page, not with what was on screen at that moment.
others see it more as a variant of "portable". as in something you carry in your pocket and pull out when sitting at a table or standing still.
under the first definition, anything that cant ve done with one hand will be troublesome, as any bump will have hands/arms moving in all kinds of directions.
under the second, using two hands is perfectly valid, as there will rarely be raandom bumps to deal with.
and i agree on the above idea of relative and absolute, as a relative interface would allow one handed operation.
for instance, my phones built in browser has a pointer now, but one that jumps to "hotspots" in proximity when a direction is quickly pushed.
this allows for easy operation with one hand, even tho there are still some niggles.
i know nokia tried something similar with the early browsers of the tablets. but the flaw there was that it started at the top of the page, not with what was on screen at that moment.
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2009-04-15
, 01:12
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Posts: 11,700 |
Thanked: 10,045 times |
Joined on Jun 2006
@ North Texas, USA
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#145
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Yes, TheTree did a very nice job of detailing a concept I outlined in the abstract to ragnar a few months ago. I was talking at a high level then (modal vs non-modal, etc) and I'm glad to see someone offer a concrete example of how different contexts could provide a different use experience.
__________________
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
Nokia Developer Champion
Different <> Wrong | Listen - Judgment = Progress | People + Trust = Success
My personal site: http://texrat.net
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2009-04-15
, 01:30
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Posts: 3,524 |
Thanked: 2,958 times |
Joined on Oct 2007
@ Delta Quadrant
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#146
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@Texrat
You pwned me at hello...
*sigh*
The quality of my "jokes" degrade as the hours ware on... Talk to you all in the morn...
Good night, and good luck...
YARR!
}:^)~
Capt'n Alhola
You pwned me at hello...
*sigh*
The quality of my "jokes" degrade as the hours ware on... Talk to you all in the morn...
Good night, and good luck...
YARR!
}:^)~
Capt'n Alhola
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2009-04-15
, 02:50
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Posts: 2,427 |
Thanked: 2,986 times |
Joined on Dec 2007
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#147
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Originally Posted by TheTree
Are you only talking about capacitive touch screens? If so, than I agree with you and don't bother reading further. But if you are also talking about resistive touch screens, I couldn't disagree more.
Why not allow people to use the touchscreen as a trackpad for the tablet itself? Most apps can be easily finger optimized and used in a normal, absolute mode. But for data-dense apps like gnumeric, the touchscreen could be switched into a relative cursor movement mode, with a visible cursor.
I'm not sure if you were referring to me, but I'm the crazy person who suggested putting a touch pad on the back of a tablet that had a capacitive touch screen. I wouldn't suggest that for a tablet with a resistive touch screen, as I also would never use gnumeric the way you suggest on a tablet with a resistive touch screen. Why would I? I have a stylus and a resistive touch screen. I can pick up the tip and go precisely to a location. Relative cursor movement produced by a mouse or a touch pad is only necessary when your display dimensions are much larger than your tracking area.
__________________
N9: Go white or go home
N9: Go white or go home
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2009-04-15
, 06:13
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Posts: 3,790 |
Thanked: 5,718 times |
Joined on Mar 2006
@ Vienna, Austria
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#148
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Originally Posted by tso
this is exactly what i'm trying to say... "mobile" (bus, car, ...) vs. "portable" (pocket).
another thing is the definition of mobile. some think og it as riding a car, buss or similar.
others see it more as a variant of "portable". as in something you carry in your pocket and pull out when sitting at a table or standing still.
i'm still convinced that the form factor of the current tablets makes them far too big and heavy for mobile use. the next device could be different, but AFAIK they assume its screen will be roughly the same size, so it probably won't be much smaller.
also, nobody can convince me that a touchscreen is a good input device for a bumpy bus ride, anyway. hardware keys are.
given all this, i just can't understand why they're trying to optimize a UI for a use case that's ruled out in the first place by two other factors.
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2009-04-15
, 11:50
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Posts: 2,869 |
Thanked: 1,784 times |
Joined on Feb 2007
@ Po' Bo'. PA
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#149
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Originally Posted by benny1967
Ah!, you must be under the age of 40.
this is exactly what i'm trying to say... "mobile" (bus, car, ...) vs. "portable" (pocket).
i'm still convinced that the form factor of the current tablets makes them far too big and heavy for mobile use. the next device could be different, but AFAIK they assume its screen will be roughly the same size, so it probably won't be much smaller.
also, nobody can convince me that a touchscreen is a good input device for a bumpy bus ride, anyway. hardware keys are.
given all this, i just can't understand why they're trying to optimize a UI for a use case that's ruled out in the first place by two other factors.
As far as using the touch screen for navigation go >>here<<.
That^ uses a transparent image map to define hot spots on the tablets screen that are used for navigation. This image map has to be coded into each page though... >>click<<
In my perfect world the tablet would have a hardware key that toggles these "hot spots" and makes them available to every application. Each application could use them independently or provide a means for the user to assign his or her own functions. When the app in the foreground changes, those functions might change auto-magically or be toggled on or off by the user all together.
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2009-04-15
, 12:29
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Posts: 631 |
Thanked: 1,123 times |
Joined on Sep 2005
@ Helsinki
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#150
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Originally Posted by benny1967
Once you decide that you support finger use, you need to change your paradigm from desktop applications to mobile applications. They will be "less powerful" in terms of not having the breadth (and the depth) of their desktop counterparts, but they will be more powerful and more usable in the selected mobile use cases than simply trying to utilize the desktop UI into a small device.
it's not so much the stylus as a physical accessory. i'm used to buying add-ons each time nokia ruins this device.
the real problem isn't the hardware. it's the software. once you decide you'll only support finger use, you'll need to create a UI that's less powerful. you'll need to re-design existing desktop applications only because of the UI, even if they'd run without any change technically. (look at the preferences-screen of Xchat. i cannot imagine this within a fingerpainting environment.)
what makes the tablets so powerful is that they're so close to a standard GNU/linux desktop system that even GUI applications can run without a lot of change. this is the only reason why i'm using a tablet. i'm afraid this feature will be lost.
It's like Henry Ford, but in the opposite direction: We have a desktop application, a horse. Trying to maintain the current desktop/stylus UI's as such is as like breeding smaller horses. Yes, you can perhaps breed a small horse, and it might superficially look cute on a small screen, but using it reminds you all the time, and rather painfully, that it's ultimately a crappy experience compared "to the real thing". It's not a strong or fast or easy to ride.
Trying to compete with desktop computing on its terms will fail. The devices have small screens, cramped input methods, less power, less storage etc, poor mouse adaptation etc.
Mobile devices need mobile UI's, taking use of the strong suits of the device, instead of trying to emulate the strong suits of the desktop environment. You need to create dogs (or choose the useful pet of your personal preference), not smaller horses.
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Ultimately the easiest way to perform administrative file functions is to SSH from a desktop if you are comfortable with a CLI. An GUI emulator for the desktop may be best for all users though.
Particularly one where the install file is small enough to be kept on the device's own memory card and could be easily transfered and run on most visited desktops.
***
With the N800 I solved the stylus/admin vs touch/user problem by running two different task navigators. I keep all the admin tasks in Command Navigator and user tasks in Personal Menu.
Until I had the tablet set up to my liking, 80% of my time was spent with stylus/admin tasks... Now 80% is spent just using the dang thing.