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	Texrat	2009-08-27 , 21:07
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Originally Posted by johnkzin

That, or I'm confident that all of your tasks are satisfied by applications, and not operating systems. The application being the "tool" that is "the right tool for the job". Not the operating system.

Chickens and eggs, John.

If the apps aren't available for the OS, then that OS is for all practical purposes useless for those dependent on said apps.

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	JayOnThaBeat	2009-08-27 , 21:16
	Posts: 1,028 \| Thanked: 578 times \| Joined on Mar 2009 @ Chicago	#332

Originally Posted by johnkzin

And the first rule of tool use is: always pick the right tool for the task.

I'll let you know if I ever find a task for which the right tool was Windows.

Originally Posted by luca

Actually they are religions: there's no other explanation people keep using windows

This reminds me of elementary school, running around yelling "Power Rangers are gay!" because I wanted to make fun of the kids who still watched the show after I grew out of it. It didn't serve a real purpose, except to try to make myself feel as if I was better than the (gay?) kids who still enjoyed the show.

I just don't get the windows hatred. I think windows is great. Linux is also great. The Mac OS is probably great as well. They all have their pros and cons.

My point is, what's the point of the bashing? If you have no use for it, don't use it. You're never going to convert people against something they like.

If anything, use this energy to spread the word about the exciting power of Linux to those who don't know about it.

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Last edited by JayOnThaBeat; 2009-08-27 at 21:25.

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	johnkzin	2009-08-27 , 22:33
	Posts: 1,878 \| Thanked: 646 times \| Joined on Sep 2007 @ San Jose, CA	#333

Originally Posted by Texrat

Chickens and eggs, John.

If the apps aren't available for the OS, then that OS is for all practical purposes useless for those dependent on said apps.

Right. So, which apps that you use _only_ run on microsoft, without a just as useful and usable (or more useful and usable) and interchangeable version on Mac, BSD, Linux, and/or the Cloud?

For example, some people would say "MS Project", which itself doesn't have Mac, BSD, Linux (or Cloud that I'm aware of) versions... yet there are other project software packages that are just as good, and will read/write MS Project files. I've done entire projects where the management people above the project were all using MS Project, and the Project manager and I (if I wasn't the project manager) were using a Mac package instead. The management folks never knew the difference. So, there was no connection between "best tool" (since the tools were interchangeable) and "OS platform".

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	luca	2009-08-27 , 23:08
	Posts: 1,137 \| Thanked: 402 times \| Joined on Sep 2007 @ Catalunya	#334

Originally Posted by JayOnThaBeat

I just don't get the windows hatred

Too many things are forced on you (well, on me at least) in the name of this reli^H^H^H^Hoperating system.
If it was just a matter of everyone using what he likes, without somebody putting sticks in your wheels because of your choice, there would be no hatred.

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	Texrat	2009-08-28 , 02:29
	Posts: 11,700 \| Thanked: 10,045 times \| Joined on Jun 2006 @ North Texas, USA	#335

Originally Posted by johnkzin

Right. So, which apps that you use _only_ run on microsoft, without a just as useful and usable (or more useful and usable) and interchangeable version on Mac, BSD, Linux, and/or the Cloud?

For example, some people would say "MS Project", which itself doesn't have Mac, BSD, Linux (or Cloud that I'm aware of) versions... yet there are other project software packages that are just as good, and will read/write MS Project files. I've done entire projects where the management people above the project were all using MS Project, and the Project manager and I (if I wasn't the project manager) were using a Mac package instead. The management folks never knew the difference. So, there was no connection between "best tool" (since the tools were interchangeable) and "OS platform".

SolidWorks

Pro/ENGINEER (although not in a while)

No native Mac versions, and people report numerous problems on emulators.

And, really, if I were inclined I could go on and on and on. I have hundreds of apps, use dozens at any given time and most are said to run poorly in emulators if at all.

The tools we use in professional environments are rarely the tools we choose but rather those chosen for us. Now, one *could* start a silly tangent over how we have a choice in careers, companies, etc but that would be another pointless chicken and egg exercise.

But I'm surprised you even have to ask that question. It suggests to me a surprising lack of familiarity with the subject. This is well-covered ground... and a fruitless argument IMO.

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Last edited by Texrat; 2009-08-28 at 02:31.

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	dormant	2009-08-28 , 02:40
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Originally Posted by johnkzin

Right. So, which apps that you use _only_ run on microsoft, without a just as useful and usable (or more useful and usable) and interchangeable version on Mac, BSD, Linux, and/or the Cloud?

ArcGIS: No Mac version except for crappy java ArcExplorer. And no half-decent Linux GIS software, and none which does shapefiles. A major gripe with me.

Office suite that reads latest MS Office formats, although this should come soon.

Can we get back on topic please?

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ColdFusion	2009-08-28 , 02:45
Posts: 397 \| Thanked: 227 times \| Joined on May 2007	#337

I'm going to go further, it's not about the OS or the Application. It's about the formats. If you're using open standarts you can change OSes and programs at your will, and not have your files held hostage by some software company.
But it will soon be universal to use open standarts on everything. Hell even the music and ebook industries are killing the drm right now.

You can thank the "religious nerds" for your new freedom then. Until then, "just use your tools", but try not get too much in bed with proprietary stuff or you'll wake up to disaster one day.

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	Texrat	2009-08-28 , 02:48
	Posts: 11,700 \| Thanked: 10,045 times \| Joined on Jun 2006 @ North Texas, USA	#338

I'll be holding my breath.

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	johnkzin	2009-08-28 , 03:46
	Posts: 1,878 \| Thanked: 646 times \| Joined on Sep 2007 @ San Jose, CA	#339

Originally Posted by dormant

ArcGIS: No Mac version except for crappy java ArcExplorer. And no half-decent Linux GIS

GIS meaning Geographical Information System data software? So the task is working with GIS data? ... our GIS group swears by a Solaris GIS package (my group maintains some of the servers as an inter-departmental cooperation agreement, but we only maintain the OS, so I have no idea what GIS application they're running on top of Solaris). Why is ArcGIS the best tool for working with GIS data, as opposed to something like Quantum GIS? uDig? PostGIS? Chameleon? GRASS?

And, with ArcGIS, what's wrong with the non-Mac/non-Linux versions? (they appear to have, or had, Solaris and HPUX versions)

Office suite that reads latest MS Office formats, although this should come soon.

MS Office doesn't read them? I haven't encountered an MS Office document that MS Office for the Mac can't read. It's one of the few reasons I still have my home Mac.

Originally Posted by Texrat

SolidWorks

Pro/ENGINEER (although not in a while)

No native Mac versions

So, the task is "CAD/CAM/CAE 3D Design" ... and you're telling me that there's no such tools on the Mac? like NX? BRL-CAD? CATIA?

Or are you telling me that those two are better than NX? and any of the other Mac/Solaris/HPUX/AIX/BSD/Linux available 3D CAD/CAM/CAE packages?

I'm seeing several that can interchange files with the above programs, at the very least... but I honestly don't know where they stack up feature per feature.

Or, as I point out below, are you saying that they were chosen for you, so you didn't have the option of finding the best tool for the job?

The tools we use in professional environments are rarely the tools we choose but rather those chosen for us.

Which is NOT you choosing the best tool for the job, it's a tool (best or not) being chosen for you, from above/outside/whatever. BIG difference.

But I'm surprised you even have to ask that question. It suggests to me a surprising lack of familiarity with the subject. This is well-covered ground... and a fruitless argument IMO.

I'm familiar with the argument. Heard it hundreds of times. It's an old saw, practically. I have seen one or two EXTREMELY niche cases (both were very specialized music programs) where it's true. I haven't encountered any general situations where it's true. In those cases it's always my experience/observation that "it was imposed from above" or "that's what every one chose, so that's what we chose", with no actual evaluation of "the best tool for the job".

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