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Fargus is offline Fargus
2010-03-03 , 16:38
Posts: 1,217 | Thanked: 446 times | Joined on Oct 2009 @ Bedfordshire, UK
#191
Originally Posted by fatalsaint View Post
Note what I've said: I'll find free alternatives, write it myself, or won't use it.
The original quiote was:
but something as graphically intensive and world-in-depth as that game took 1000's upon 1000's of hours to build. People need compensation.
Commercial software takes a similar amount of time and effort to develop - surely that means that developers deserve compensation too or is it only eye candy that deserves to be paid for?
 
Bratag is offline Bratag
2010-03-03 , 16:39
Posts: 2,014 | Thanked: 1,581 times | Joined on Sep 2009
#192
Originally Posted by fatalsaint View Post
Note what I've said: I'll find free alternatives, write it myself, or won't use it.

There are usually decent quality free alternatives to commercial software (openoffice). There are not a large amount of decent free games like Savage II.

So therefore I have to scale my philosophical opinions with practical application. Just like with the movie industry.

I may hate the way the way they do it.. but that's the only "legal" way it's done.. and since I won't go without my movies I am forced to abide by their silly rules (to an extent. You won't find me sharing or distributing **** online.. but damnit - I *will* get a copy to watch on my computer! (meaning ripped from the dvd I bought.))

So with Games I had to raise my bar if I wanted to game at all: I'll pay for the software itself if it supports Linux natively. WoW does not, therefore I wouldn't re-buy the game discs. WoW however works perfectly in Wine, and the installer is free, and they've fixed their game in the past to maintain Wine compatibility when an update broke it and users complained - they offered me a loop hole through my own logic. They don't "officially" support it.. but they do tend to make sure it'll work for me.

Fallout 3 I don't play.. they don't support Linux, and there's no free download. So I go without Fallout 3 and Left 4 Dead.. two very great games: Both will work in Wine - but I won't support the game until it's either made officially to work with Linux (or at least show they'll try retain wine-compatibility) - or they make it free.
Yes and who do you think writes that opensource/free alternatives? In almost every case its a developer or group of developers who have other jobs which support them and an amount of free time. If they were to lose that job that supported them don't you think it would be acceptable for them to get something out of the project they so diligently supported for free for so long?

Open office was StarOffice before it became open office (sun purchased and open sourced it) and was in fact a paid product. The ONLY reason it exists in its current form is that Sun provided the source and a dedicated group of people maintain it. That could all change in a second if their circumstances changed.

I would quite happily produce every single line of code I write for free if someone will come up with a system where I am provided with the necessities required for living and maintaining my current lifestyle. Until that happens my time and my experience and valuable commodities, no different than a doctors or carpenters or any other service profession.
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Fargus is offline Fargus
2010-03-03 , 16:39
Posts: 1,217 | Thanked: 446 times | Joined on Oct 2009 @ Bedfordshire, UK
#193
Originally Posted by azorni View Post
And I still don't get your point.

A protocol is an intellectual construction that is as much useful as its implementation. From the point of view of the defense of intellectual rights, they are both as important, and i don't see why one should be more "protected" than the other. This was my initial point.
The point is that one is freely given to the community by the originator, the other isn't!
 
azorni is offline azorni
2010-03-03 , 16:40
Posts: 16 | Thanked: 1 time | Joined on Dec 2009 @ Paris, France
#194
Originally Posted by Fargus View Post
So if it was possible to do under free software then why didn't you?

the point you were making earlier was that you didn't use retail software - you just stated that you were using retail software. QED
I was an employee, I wasn't in charge of infrastructure choices. And using proprietary software was one reason for me to resign and to go somewhere else. Did I say I've never used retail software ? If so, my mistake.
 
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ewan is offline ewan
2010-03-03 , 16:41
Posts: 445 | Thanked: 572 times | Joined on Oct 2009 @ Oxford
#195
Originally Posted by mrojas View Post
In the many pages this thread has grown after I left it yesterday, I see a lot of post-rationalization (Gimme, Gimme!!), and very little empathy.
From both sides though. The attitude of the anti-freedom folks (It's MY software, my PRECIOUSSSS) is just as selfish and lacking in empathy.
 
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Fargus is offline Fargus
2010-03-03 , 16:41
Posts: 1,217 | Thanked: 446 times | Joined on Oct 2009 @ Bedfordshire, UK
#196
Originally Posted by azorni View Post
Apart from Turing or maybe Pascal, nobody as ever designed a piece of software all by oneself.

Same as for the bicycle, if I must design one, i hope I won't have to pay fees for the license for wheels.
Communal effort does not preclude open source. If you used only items available freely then you are fine, using a production machine then it would have it's own protection in place. Whilst you owuld be free to use the machine, copying the design would constitute unacceptable behaviour if done without permission.
 
fatalsaint is offline fatalsaint
2010-03-03 , 16:43
Posts: 3,428 | Thanked: 2,856 times | Joined on Jul 2008
#197
Originally Posted by Fargus View Post
Commercial software takes a similar amount of time and effort to develop - surely that means that developers deserve compensation too or is it only eye candy that deserves to be paid for?
You tell me.. why is there so many free alternatives to 1000's of commercial software...

And so few alternative to decent, good games?

I do actually know how to code here.. and writing a production or office software is *not* as difficult as writing a game. Opening, closing, editing, etc.. on files is simple and straight forward. I'm not saying they don't deserve to be compensated, just that there is aspects games have that are not in commercial software (assuming we are separating the terms "games" and "commercial").

Games have a story line, usually a very in depth story line that includes writers, story-board stuff etc.. and also 3D intensive graphics which require artists and other people. These aspects are not in your average commercial software.

There *may* be graphic designers.. whose job it is to design that cute little "e" that swirls around when a page loads.. but nobody can tell me a full 3D sprite of a zombie including dripping blood is exactly equal to a swirling "e".
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Fargus is offline Fargus
2010-03-03 , 16:44
Posts: 1,217 | Thanked: 446 times | Joined on Oct 2009 @ Bedfordshire, UK
#198
Originally Posted by fatalsaint View Post
So we moved the definition of entitled to stuff I didn't pay for.. to removing something I do pay for?

You are not guaranteed or entitled to anything but the right to live. I am against federal-funded schools, welfare, healthcare, and every other item people claim they are "entitled" to simply by living or being in some place or state or position. I know many disagree with me and that's fine. (states may be different.. even better communities or cities can opt to pay for schools.)

However, if I pay for my internet connection, and my ISP doesn't provide: That's a separate issue.

I decided, because I'm bored, to google define entitled and got this:



The bold is what I'm referring to. I do think if you pay for something.. you are "entitled" to certain things you would otherwise not be. This is why I hang my head in shame at Bratag's emails from people who received free software - and act like that. At least if they paid for it.. there's something to complain about. If it's free.. you aren't "entitled" to **** from it.. including and not limited to the software even working at all.
But that in turn means you feel you are entitled to a legal system. I am being obviously pendant on this issue. I agree with a lot of your posting above but the point I was making is that you cannot simply decide that as you are paying your ISP for a service then they have to provide it but not paying for a piece of media and you are entitled to use it.
 
azorni is offline azorni
2010-03-03 , 16:44
Posts: 16 | Thanked: 1 time | Joined on Dec 2009 @ Paris, France
#199
Originally Posted by Fargus View Post
The point is that one is freely given to the community by the originator, the other isn't!
And that's exactly what I was saying initially : you develop some software using protocols and tools that have been freely given to you, and yet you want to charge people for it. Even if I consider this is your right, according to me this is a shame.
 
fatalsaint is offline fatalsaint
2010-03-03 , 16:45
Posts: 3,428 | Thanked: 2,856 times | Joined on Jul 2008
#200
Originally Posted by Bratag View Post
Yes and who do you think writes that opensource/free alternatives? In almost every case its a developer or group of developers who have other jobs which support them and an amount of free time. If they were to lose that job that supported them don't you think it would be acceptable for them to get something out of the project they so diligently supported for free for so long?

Open office was StarOffice before it became open office (sun purchased and open sourced it) and was in fact a paid product. The ONLY reason it exists in its current form is that Sun provided the source and a dedicated group of people maintain it. That could all change in a second if their circumstances changed.

I would quite happily produce every single line of code I write for free if someone will come up with a system where I am provided with the necessities required for living and maintaining my current lifestyle. Until that happens my time and my experience and valuable commodities, no different than a doctors or carpenters or any other service profession.
This argument is fundamentally flawed when we can sit here and list nearly every major Linux distribution is existence that is completely open source.. and still manages to make money.

Even Red Hat's code itself in it's flagship RHEL is completely open source... otherwise CentOS would not exist. There is some copyright stuff in images and the like - but the functioning code itself is free.

They make money on support, and contracts... not the sell of software.
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