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Texrat's Avatar
Texrat is offline Texrat
2007-09-09 , 22:19
Posts: 11,700 | Thanked: 10,045 times | Joined on Jun 2006 @ North Texas, USA
#41
Originally Posted by aflegg View Post
To clarify (and I'm really not certain), are you saying there's nothing Nokia/the NITs[1] can learn from Apple/the iPod Touch? Except, perhaps, the hype you keep mentioning?
Disingenuous question, Andrew. I've acknowledged NUMEROUS times that Nokia can learn many things from Apple. You are adding things to my statement that I neither stated nor implied. My comments were specific to Milhouse's question.

They've got *something* because they can consistently turn hype into sales. The iPod line revamp makes the *news* for chrissakes!
Agreed. See response above. I am not disavowing Apple's success at all. None of my comments are meant to impugn Apple!

I'm beginning to suspect that the NITs are just incapable of providing a really good browser experience. The Apple devices seem to make more of an effort, but without trying one I can't really compare.
Wow. Funny because I'm seeing complaints from iPhone users about browsing. And with microb I don't quite see how you can make the statement above.

We've got desktop browsers shoved in a physically small space, with zoom (desktop browsers have that) and "Optimised view".

The iP{od,hone} have those and more, as well as a better/more slick UI for driving them.
BUT a smaller screen, which means more scrolling/panning, hence the complaints from some users. I think the N800 has the right sized screen and right resolution. Also, why was Flash 9 so important to tablet users but suddenly a nonstarter for the Apple products? Please.

For example, the other night I was sat in bed, connected to our wifi looking for a new gadget bag - a task for which the N800 is supposed to be perfect. But the UI is slow and clunky, links always open in front meaning that I can't even let the slow UI render these complex shopping pages in the background whilst continuing to look through (say) Google results.

Then copy & paste stopped working, and the browser crashed... I just gave up and went and used my wife's laptop instead.
UI is fast enough for me, and I very rarely experience what you describe. I have more problems on my supposedly mature Windows PCs than I do on the N800.

INDt. And we've been regularly told that they're nothing to do with Nokia, except sponsorship. So you can't take the credit now ;-)
Try again. The relationship is closer than you are acknowledging. I think maybe you misunderstood the disclaimers.

And one thing that is seen as just a little amusing is the fact that many maemo folks participate in general linux development, but this is almost totally glossed over in the rush to condemn them for issues with tablet software. I would think most of the professionals here would understand that there are other factors that contribute to software inadequacies than the common kneejerk assumptions (I have to cease commenting at this point).

The cynic in me says that's hope over experience. Yes, the Nokia Internet Tablet team are very dedicated and passionate, and have invoked the passions of a few thousand users; however there doesn't seem to be any real corporate support (apart from the fact they still have jobs), and there's no joined up thinking across the company.

That's not the case with Apple: they *appear* to act as one company, not lots of little fiefdoms. I know how rare this is in a big company.
Apple is more focused because they can be-- so far. What happens when Apple tries to expand as far and deep as Nokia has? Guess what: same problems emerge. Apple can appear "perfect" because they haven't gotten into anywhere near the risk Nokia has. Apple is immune to some issues because it hasn't embraced open source with the iPhone and Touch-- an EXTREMELY important fact that many here are glossing over.

And you are forgetting other key points, which have all been addressed so no reason to belabor them-- but Nokia's willingness to adjust as this NEW product model matures is definitely key.

It's a broken analogy, unfortunately. In the UK at least lots of people are buying phones for their camera, for example the Sony Ericsson K800i is one of the most popular phones, and *is* the primary camera for many of its owners.

Now, I'm like you, I like a proper camera, but that's the minority now. And pandering to a minority only works if you have an excellent all-round experience. The N800 may be "good" or "OK" in a lot of categories, but only some bits of the hardware (mainly the screen) could be called "excellent".

Hardware rarely sells, though, it's what you can do with a device which makes a sale - i.e. software.
Is that really a minority? Got any stats? I'd seriously like to see them out of general interest.

For the record: I have always been honest about Nokia's missteps with the tablets, and no one is more disgusted than I am with the state of advertising and sales channels. But I have to leave most of my feelings there unspoken, and I really wish you guys would understand that and show some consideration for it. I simply canNOT say everything I would like to. So it will look like I'm simply parroting the corporate line when I'm really trying to balance the arguments as best I can given the circumstances. I just have to bite my lip at certain points.

But there's way too much "apples and oranges" type 'comparisons' made in this debate, too much muddying of the waters, too much hyperbole, too many logical fallacies employed in the gushing praise of the Apple products. Yes, to a degree it's warranted but these things are not gold-plated, folks. At the end of the day they're just well-designed devices supported by a fairly narrow-focused company with very few SKUs (many of you completely ignore that part) that has cultivated a loud and loyal collection of consumers and mastered the magic of hype. Nokia is a far more conservative company that is willing to operate via punctuated equilibrium and for the most part has been successful at it. The stock I bought at $15 is now around $34 so I can't complain too much...

Finally, no one is giving credit to Nokia for the recent reorganization. You all act like the mistakes of yesterday will never be corrected but that's naive. A large part of the reorg was due to the need to address previous missteps and misalignments. If nothing comes of it after a year or too, then feel free to say "I told you so". Until then, we're going to do our damndest to address real concerns.

More to come. Except that I think I've said all I need to on this topic.

Originally Posted by another poster
have no doubt that the iPod Touch and the N800 are competing directly,
Quotes like that blow my mind.

No they're not.

Originally Posted by zerojay View Post
Hey Milhouse... given the choice between Canola and Media Player, I take Media Player each and every time. I don't like apps that think they own the device and only run fullscreen. I also don't like the waste of resources for flashy crap that's not useful in the slightest and gets in the way. Guess what company's stuff I won't be buying? (I used to be one of those Apple drones years ago - when they actually made good stuff.)

Something I just thought of. iPods are pretty much the only way Apple's stayed afloat over the last few years so a good amount of resources from Apple were behind the development of them. It's their bread and butter. Nokia's bread and butter are phones. The internet tablet project is more or less a small project within the company, not a huge major release that's a make or break prospect for the company. So I think it makes sense that Nokia's not on the same level as Apple in terms of support and development (though I would love to see it).
...but quotes like that make my day.

Zerojay Gets It. Thank God.
Last edited by Texrat; 2007-09-10 at 00:38.
 
aflegg's Avatar
aflegg is offline aflegg
2007-09-10 , 08:18
Posts: 1,463 | Thanked: 81 times | Joined on Oct 2005 @ UK
#42
Yes, if only there were millions of zerojay's in the world, the NIT would be an unabashed success on the scale of the iPhone, the iPod and (I'm willing to wager) the iPod Touch ;-)

And on the re-org point, I don't give anyone points for re-organising. They get points for results... when we see them, not before.
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zerojay's Avatar
zerojay is offline zerojay
2007-09-10 , 12:12
Posts: 2,669 | Thanked: 2,555 times | Joined on Apr 2007
#43
Originally Posted by aflegg View Post
Yes, if only there were millions of zerojay's in the world, the NIT would be an unabashed success on the scale of the iPhone, the iPod and (I'm willing to wager) the iPod Touch ;-)
If there were millions of me, we probably would have reverted back to the stone ages by now. ;/

Remember AppleTV? No? Can't say I blame you. Hype hype hype hype HYPE HYPE HYPE HYPE... disappointment, disappointment... no sales... dead.
 
Texrat's Avatar
Texrat is offline Texrat
2007-09-10 , 13:09
Posts: 11,700 | Thanked: 10,045 times | Joined on Jun 2006 @ North Texas, USA
#44
Originally Posted by aflegg View Post
Yes, if only there were millions of zerojay's in the world, the NIT would be an unabashed success on the scale of the iPhone, the iPod and (I'm willing to wager) the iPod Touch ;-)

And on the re-org point, I don't give anyone points for re-organising. They get points for results... when we see them, not before.
The points would be for the recognition that there was misalignment and hence a fix.

And I'll zerojay's unabashed honesty over gushing product worship any day.
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barry99705's Avatar
barry99705 is offline barry99705
2007-09-10 , 17:17
Posts: 641 | Thanked: 27 times | Joined on Apr 2007
#45
Originally Posted by zerojay View Post
If there were millions of me, we probably would have reverted back to the stone ages by now. ;/

Remember AppleTV? No? Can't say I blame you. Hype hype hype hype HYPE HYPE HYPE HYPE... disappointment, disappointment... no sales... dead.
Heh, everybody I know has one.
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Milhouse is offline Milhouse
2007-09-10 , 17:56
Posts: 3,401 | Thanked: 1,255 times | Joined on Nov 2005 @ London, UK
#46
The problem with Apple TV is that downloadable content is limited and it uses Apple-preferred video codecs and is heavily dependent on iTunes. TV/Film content is extremely lacking in many regions, and even where there is a selection it's still pretty limited. Unlike with music, video download services are still quite immature/limited and until Apple supports a wider variety of codecs natively (I believe more codecs can be added using various hacks) I don't think the Apple TV will appeal to a wide cross section of the buying public. I want High Def support, DivX/XviD, ISO/VOB and UPnP support - something like the PixelMagic would suit me down to the ground. The lack of iTunes/downloadable support isn't an issue as iTunes UK only offers trailers and some American content such as Sponge Bob Square Pants, South Park and a few British shows for almost £2 a throw - no thanks!

This problems with the Apple TV are being caused largely by the lack of content and Apples desire to lock you into their platform.
 
aak4 is offline aak4
2007-09-10 , 18:10
Posts: 5 | Thanked: 0 times | Joined on Jun 2007
#47
Look, the N800 easily beats the touch in so many ways:
a much better browser with javascript and flash 9
2 full size SD cards
skype
MUCH higher resolution screen-browsing on the touch is nowhere near the N800
a usable touch keyboard

In my open, the touch isn't the gorilla in the room. The gorilla is the vga screen pocket pc (windows mobile 6 professional), GPS (sirf III), GPRS/edge/umts/hsdpa, 15.8 mm thick Glofiish X800.

I'm I'm seriously thinking about trading in my N800 for one. I started a thread about this (do a forum search for glofiish with 2 i's).seriously thinking about trading in my N800 for one. I started a thread about this.out this.out this.
 
Texrat's Avatar
Texrat is offline Texrat
2007-09-10 , 18:24
Posts: 11,700 | Thanked: 10,045 times | Joined on Jun 2006 @ North Texas, USA
#48
There's some irony in that ^ post...
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Greyghost is offline Greyghost
2007-09-10 , 18:33
Posts: 415 | Thanked: 44 times | Joined on Apr 2007 @ Austin, Texas
#49
Originally Posted by Texrat View Post

...but quotes like that make my day.

Zerojay Gets It. Thank God.
O xlnt! This REALLY hits the point! Indeed, Apple is *depending* on the iphony and itouchy for survival in the current business climate, and is thus defensive (closed source), while Nokia is *using* the N800 to adapt to the current and *emerging* market, so this whole effort is an offensive strategy and, logically enough, open source.

I am *still* very excited about my N800 and even more so about what it represents. I hope (actually given the above, I believe) that the Nokia N-management team (not just the N800) does not take this whole damn iphony/n8oo comparison seriously enough to distract them from the goal of providing better products and the platform for open source developers to provide software for those products.

My experienceso far has been remarkable. So far I've seen a steady stream of new software and updates, including the update to the firmware that really was an improvement! So, iphony boys and girls, go get you one and sign out, please
 
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zerojay is offline zerojay
2007-09-10 , 18:35
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#50
Originally Posted by barry99705 View Post
Heh, everybody I know has one.
You must live in a very rich neighborhood then. I've never met a single person that's bought one, even the Apple freaks here in the office won't touch it.
 
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